Firetruck41
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Re: Tesla Model X

Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:09 pm

GRA wrote:
finman100 wrote:Oh, by all means let us know when (if at all!) you make that FCEV trip. I'm only getting older you know...

There's been an H2 station at Harris Ranch since late last year IIRR, when it was first used to connect up LA and the Bay Area. CARB chairwoman Mary Nichols (she lives in SoCal, and owns a Fit EV and a Mirai) and several others drove FCEVs (Mirai, Tucson, D-B F-Cell) from SoCal to Sacramento on April 20th in honor of Earth day: https://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=803

Such a trip is routine, taking the same time as an ICE (unless it has the range to do it non-stop; existing production FCEVs can't do that yet at freeway speeds, but the next gen may).

Blah blah blah. Let us know when you make the trip in your FCEV.
8/2015- New to me 12bar 2013 SV w/QC package and 37k miles

GRA
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Re: Tesla Model X

Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:16 pm

Firetruck41 wrote:
GRA wrote:
finman100 wrote:Oh, by all means let us know when (if at all!) you make that FCEV trip. I'm only getting older you know...

There's been an H2 station at Harris Ranch since late last year IIRR, when it was first used to connect up LA and the Bay Area. CARB chairwoman Mary Nichols (she lives in SoCal, and owns a Fit EV and a Mirai) and several others drove FCEVs (Mirai, Tucson, D-B F-Cell) from SoCal to Sacramento on April 20th in honor of Earth day: https://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=803

Such a trip is routine, taking the same time as an ICE (unless it has the range to do it non-stop; existing production FCEVs can't do that yet at freeway speeds, but the next gen may).

Blah blah blah. Let us know when you make the trip in your FCEV.

What does that have to do with anything? The question is whether it can easily be done by an average person in an FCEV (well, the average person who can afford one, which doesn't include me at this time, and even if I could I'm not willing to pay that much for any car even if it's powered by fairy dust), and the answer is yes. I can't afford (and don't want) an even more expensive Model S/X either, but they can also do the trip, albeit taking longer owing to the longer stop for recharging.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Firetruck41
Posts: 476
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Leaf Number: 408264
Location: SW Washington State

Re: Tesla Model X

Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:35 pm

GRA wrote:
Firetruck41 wrote:
GRA wrote:There's been an H2 station at Harris Ranch since late last year IIRR, when it was first used to connect up LA and the Bay Area. CARB chairwoman Mary Nichols (she lives in SoCal, and owns a Fit EV and a Mirai) and several others drove FCEVs (Mirai, Tucson, D-B F-Cell) from SoCal to Sacramento on April 20th in honor of Earth day: https://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=803

Such a trip is routine, taking the same time as an ICE (unless it has the range to do it non-stop; existing production FCEVs can't do that yet at freeway speeds, but the next gen may).

Blah blah blah. Let us know when you make the trip in your FCEV.

What does that have to do with anything? The question is whether it can easily be done by an average person in an FCEV (well, the average person who can afford one, which doesn't include me at this time, and even if I could I'm not willing to pay that much for any car even if it's powered by fairy dust), and the answer is yes. I can't afford (and don't want) an even more expensive Model S/X either, but they can also do the trip, albeit taking longer owing to the longer stop for recharging.

No that wasn't the question. The question was for lorenfb to let us know when he drives it in his FCEV. We all know it is possible. It's possible to travel that distance in any of numerous different vehicles. Again, let us know when you or lorenfb drive it in your own FCEV.
8/2015- New to me 12bar 2013 SV w/QC package and 37k miles

GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Tesla Model X

Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:44 pm

Firetruck41 wrote:
GRA wrote:
Firetruck41 wrote:Blah blah blah. Let us know when you make the trip in your FCEV.

What does that have to do with anything? The question is whether it can easily be done by an average person in an FCEV (well, the average person who can afford one, which doesn't include me at this time, and even if I could I'm not willing to pay that much for any car even if it's powered by fairy dust), and the answer is yes. I can't afford (and don't want) an even more expensive Model S/X either, but they can also do the trip, albeit taking longer owing to the longer stop for recharging.

No that wasn't the question. The question was for lorenfb to let us know when he drives it in his FCEV. We all know it is possible. It's possible to travel that distance in any of numerous different vehicles. Again, let us know when you or lorenfb drive it in your own FCEV.

Can't speak for lorenfb, but you'll have a long wait in my case, as it will obviously be at least five and possibly ten years before that occurs, for either a BEV or FCEV to meet my requirements (capability and price). Assuming, that is, that I haven't shifted over entirely to car-sharing and renting before then, transitioning from car ownership to purchasing mobility, in which case it could happen sooner.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

lorenfb
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Re: Tesla Model X

Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:44 pm

wwhitney wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Still, who likes spending at minimum 1.4 hours for a re-fueling stop

You read the wrong line of the chart--the fueling stop is 0.8 hours, after driving 1.4 hours at 90 mph.

Cheers, Wayne


Yes, my error - in a rush to drive to Oxnard in my ICEV, i.e. the Leaf @ 52 Ahrs can't make it anymore from
the LAX area.

lorenfb
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Re: Tesla Model X

Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:51 pm

GRA wrote:
finman100 wrote:Oh, by all means let us know when (if at all!) you make that FCEV trip. I'm only getting older you know...

There's been an H2 station at Harris Ranch since late last year IIRR, when it was first used to connect up LA and the Bay Area. CARB chairwoman Mary Nichols (she lives in SoCal, and owns a Fit EV and a Mirai) and several others drove FCEVs (Mirai, Tucson, D-B F-Cell) from SoCal to Sacramento on April 20th in honor of Earth day: https://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=803

Such a trip is routine, taking the same time as an ICE (unless it has the range to do it non-stop; existing production FCEVs can't do that yet at freeway speeds, but the next gen may).


Should have looked for it, remember now your mentioning it. So when the Leaf lease expires in about 3 months,
the options are for a minimum range of 200+ miles; FCEV, Bolt (depends on QC option), or a Leaf.

scottf200
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Re: Tesla Model X

Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:20 pm

I have 16,000 miles on my X now and 3/4th of that is roadtripping. 95%+ of that roadtripping is with Auto-Steer and Traffic Aware (Adaptive) Cruise Control (TACC) (aka AutoPilot Suite).

Charging every couple hours works great with stretch breaks, bathroom, snacks, lunch, dinner. Hardly changes my roadtripping at all (except of course I need to follow the supercharger railroad and northern MT is not quite there yet but soon (Great Falls and Shelby for Canada access))

I've found that 70-75 MPH works well so that I can charge from a low battery SOC (10%ish) to a about 80%-85% SOC. That is where the SuperChargers can add the kWhs the fastest before it really tapers down. I generally only have to charge 20-30 minutes.

As well driving those speeds let the AutoPilot suite have good reaction time on roads with curves, hills, and other cars. It is outstanding overall but you need to keep your hands on the wheel because it can fail and you can die (or kill others).

Using EVTripPlanner you can play with the speed multiplier to see how it affects your over all combined travel time. Not sure if it accounts in the charging time very well with the tapers at 85% SOC and higher.

Image
Graphic: https://www.tesla.com/supercharger
100K EV miles and 80% EV usage - Sorry :(PEC
Volt = 53+ mile BEV up to 100 MPH, then 40 MPG hybrid with a 9 gal gas tank
Tesla Model X P90DL - Sig:603 | 2011 Volt to kid | 2016 for wife | 2012 other kid

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dgpcolorado
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Re: Tesla Model X

Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:39 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote: They needed some help with efficient Supercharging theory (driving at 85 is not the fastest way to make a trip!)


I beg to differ. Here's my comparisons with Superchargers 125 miles apart with 120kW available, burning the battery down to 10% SOC:

SPEED ------------------55mph --------- 90mph

CONSUMPTION - 3.8miles/kWh --- 2.0miles/kWh

kWh BURNED ----- 32.9kWh ----------62.5kWh

TRAVEL TIME ------- 2.3 hours ------ 1.4 hours

CHARGE TIME------ 0.4hours -------- 0.8 hours


Total Time Enroute -- 2.7 hours ---- 2.2 hours every 125 miles
Ah, but Tesla's don't charge at 120kW straight line speed (mine charges at about 75 kW after the first minute or two, but that's not a fair comparison for the bigger battery cars). The charge rate tapers sharply, especially after about 50% SOC. And that increases charging time significantly for the faster travelers because they have to charge to a much higher SOC than the turtles. The empirical results of others suggest an optimum speed of about 70-75 mph in the bigger battery cars but it does depend a lot on weather and Supercharger Station spacing.
Blue 2012 SV Dec 2011 to Feb 2016
CPO 2014 Tesla S60 Mar 2016
One car, no ICE, at last!

GRA
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Re: Tesla Model X

Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:44 pm

scottf200 wrote:I have 16,000 miles on my X now and 3/4th of that is roadtripping. 95%+ of that roadtripping is with Auto-Steer and Traffic Aware (Adaptive) Cruise Control (TACC) (aka AutoPilot Suite).

Charging every couple hours works great with stretch breaks, bathroom, snacks, lunch, dinner. Hardly changes my roadtripping at all (except of course I need to follow the supercharger railroad and northern MT is not quite there yet but soon (Great Falls and Shelby for Canada access))

I've found that 70-75 MPH works well so that I can charge from a low battery SOC (10%ish) to a about 80%-85% SOC. That is where the SuperChargers can add the kWhs the fastest before it really tapers down. I generally only have to charge 20-30 minutes.

As well driving those speeds let the AutoPilot suite have good reaction time on roads with curves, hills, and other cars. It is outstanding overall but you need to keep your hands on the wheel because it can fail and you can die (or kill others).

Using EVTripPlanner you can play with the speed multiplier to see how it affects your over all combined travel time. Not sure if it accounts in the charging time very well with the tapers at 85% SOC and higher.

Image
Graphic: https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

Glad it works for you. Personally, that's way too much unnecessary dwell time for me on my typical road trips. I've played with Evtripplanner a lot, and the minimum capability I'd accept (i.e. less than I want) would be the ability to get from home to Truckee via I-80 (197 miles & 7,200' of climb/1,400 of descent, in winter) or Lee Vining via S.R. 120 (206 miles and 9,900+ feet of climb, 3,160 descent, in fall) non-stop, driving and using HVAC as normal, for a minimum of a decade. There'd also have to be an SC in Lee Vining, because no Model S can make Mammoth Lakes from home non-stop, except the S90D in ideal conditions when new, and even it is in the yellow. This is only a bit over half the capability of my ICE (I can easily make Lone Pine, another 125 miles south of Lee Vining, non-stop in it via 120/395, and include the round trip 4,000' up/down to Whitney Portal, with range left over) , but I could live with it. Unfortunately, only the S90D can make Lee Vining in the green zone under ideal conditions (speed 1.0, 72 deg.) when brand new, and at my typical speed factor (for that trip based on time) of 1.07 it's in the yellow zone. All smaller battery Model S' are either in the yellow (might not make if conditions are unexpectedly bad) or red (almost certainly won't make) zones in ideal conditions, and the S60-70D are in the red all the time. I"m assuming the S will be similar in drag/rolling resistance to a Model Y.

Realistically, I would charge to only 90% at home for battery longevity purposes, and keep at least a 10% emergency reserve (lower than I'd like, especially in winter), and the lower temps I typically encounter (it was 33 passing through Tuolumne Meadows at 6:40 a.m. on my trip last month, and it will typically average 10-15 deg. colder at any given hour in mid-October) would mean heater use, reducing the range even more. By my calcs it would take at least 120kWh usable when new to make that trip for 10 years, and that's assuming a much lower amount (15%) of degradation over that period than anyone has yet demonstrated. As I typically keep a car for 15-20 years, only ten years of effective use without a major cash outlay would be a considerable negative.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

lorenfb
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Re: Tesla Model X

Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:03 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
Ah, but Tesla's don't charge at 120kW straight line speed (mine charges at about 75 kW after the first minute or two, but that's not a fair comparison for the bigger battery cars). The charge rate tapers sharply, especially after about 50% SOC. And that increases charging time significantly for the faster travelers because they have to charge to a much higher SOC than the turtles. The empirical results of others suggest an optimum speed of about 70-75 mph in the bigger battery cars but it does depend a lot on weather and Supercharger Station spacing.


The charge rate tapering is the typical approach used when charging most all battery technologies, e.g. lead acid,
nickel-metal, lithium & etc, to avoid excessive internal heat affecting battery life. Many battery types, though,
can charge at a C/10 rate continuously without damage.

When my Leaf approaches about 60% to 70% SOC with a QC, the charge rate is about that of an L2 charge rate.
So I can usually within 10 - 12 minutes obtain another 25 - 35 miles with a QC, and that's the limit on my tolerance
for a trip delay. Many speak of the ubiquitousness of the BEV charging "network". For me while traveling, any available
charging station other than a QC is of little value. Given that, I don't view the BEV "network" as others do, obviously
notwithstanding the Tesla SC network.

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