The RAV4 EV is back

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JasonT

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
Messages
509
Location
AZ
Not a vehicle for me, but the RAV4 EV has some pretty devoted followers. Looks like Tesla and Toyota are working together and bringing back the RAV4 EV. http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/16/breaking-tesla-and-toyota-to-develop-rav4-ev-hope-to-launch-in/
 
Toyota's press release:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/tesla-motors-and-toyota-motor-163915.aspx
 
Bicster said:
I contemplated trading in my future LEAF for that, until I read that it will be using Tesla's battery pack. :cool:

I started to contemplate ordering one when I saw they would be using Teslas pack. Tesla have the only pack I know of in development that can accomplish a 300-mile range and I need at least 250 miles & AWD...
 
jkirkebo said:
I started to contemplate ordering one when I saw they would be using Teslas pack. Tesla have the only pack I know of in development that can accomplish a 300-mile range and I need at least 250 miles & AWD...

That is not a function of technology - but of pricing.
 
I doubt you'll get AWD on the RAV4 EV, although it could be done efficiently with the use of multiple motors.

My issue with the Tesla pack is the rapid deterioration and replacement cost, combined with a short warranty.

Anyone can make a 300 mile pack.
 
Yep...though I would hope Toyota would improve the warranty...

right now the tesla pack has a 3 year warranty and costs over 30k to replace...gah...

and a pack to get that mileage (250 plus miles) with the bigger, heavier, less aerodynamic Rav4 would cost much more...

spending 40k on a 3 year battery pack is for people much more elite than I...i'm much more a middle class kinda guy

Gavin
 
The biggest question to me now is - what is Honda going to do ? Are they going to chase the Hydrogen mirage or jump on the battery bandwagon ?
 
evnow said:
The biggest question to me now is - what is Honda going to do ? Are they going to chase the Hydrogen mirage or jump on the battery bandwagon ?

I would love them to make both the EV-N

honda-evn-concept-mains.jpg



and make a EV CRV---But I would prefer the CRV to be the older style...

97-01honda_crv.jpg


though I guess the rounded style is more aerodynamic


Gavin
 
evnow said:
jkirkebo said:
I started to contemplate ordering one when I saw they would be using Teslas pack. Tesla have the only pack I know of in development that can accomplish a 300-mile range and I need at least 250 miles & AWD...

That is not a function of technology - but of pricing.

It's also a function of energy density, of which Tesla is best in class. Unless one doesn't care about the battery weighing in at 2000 lbs ;)

Also Teslas motors are in the 185kW+ class while the other players motors usually tops out at 100kW or thereabouts.
 
Gavin said:
Yep...though I would hope Toyota would improve the warranty...

right now the tesla pack has a 3 year warranty and costs over 30k to replace...gah...

spending 40k on a 3 year battery pack is for people much more elite than I...i'm much more a middle class kinda guy

Gavin

The battery pack costs $12k if you order a replacement one up front.

And why do you think the battery pack would fail right after the warranty runs out ? Used normally I understand it should retain 70% capacity after 7 years, extendable to 10 years if you baby it.

After 7 years fast chargers should be commonplace and I'd be fine with 210 miles range instead of 300 miles. Even a 100 miles range would be acceptable for me if there's enough fast chargers, I assume the pack should last quite a few years before being down to 33.3% capacity...
 
It would be great if it lasted 10 years...but what if it lasts 4?

That's why I like a longer warranty...peace of mind...it also shows the company believes in the battery pack...

computer laptop batteries are often dead or useless in three years or less...the telsa uses laptop batteries...hence my concerns...

Gavin
 
Gavin said:
It would be great if it lasted 10 years...but what if it lasts 4?

That's why I like a longer warranty...peace of mind...it also shows the company believes in the battery pack...

computer laptop batteries are often dead or useless in three years or less...the telsa uses laptop batteries...hence my concerns...

Gavin

No wonder, laptop batteries are charged to 100% and often run very hot. Still they're not dead after 3 years, usually they retain at least 50% capacity after being tortured for 3 years. With proper cooling and charging to a lower voltage they should last much longer.

Toyota might also opt to warranty the packs for a longer time.

The "what if it only lasts 4 years" is applicable to ICE cars too, warranty is usually 3 years (at least over here) and an engine replacent on a 2.0TDI is NOT cheap.
 
jkirkebo said:
It's also a function of energy density, of which Tesla is best in class. Unless one doesn't care about the battery weighing in at 2000 lbs ;)

You do get better ED when going with higher capacity as BMS weight doesn't have to go up proportionally with capacity ....

In any case, unless the specs for the Rav4 EV is actually announced, along with price - you can't make any assumptions about the battery.
 
For a look at how dramatically charge voltage affect lithium cobalt cell life:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9268

Cycle life vs charging voltage:
The cell phone industry did a study looking at the effects of ending
charge voltage on cycle life.
Under laboratory conditions, and with an 80% depth of discharge,
terminating the charge

at 4.1 volts, you get over 2000 cycles.
at 4.2 volts, you get roughly 500 cycles.
at 4.3 volts, you get under 100 cycles.
at 4.4 volts, you get less than 5 cycles.

Most people leave the battery in the laptop and keep in plugged-in. Portable devices live or die on 'talk time' and battery replacement is a nice cash flow stream so there's no incentive to slightly under charge. The other killer has already been mentioned - heat.

As an aside - the difference between the lithium-cobalt and lithium polymer cells used in portable devices and the lithium manganese used in the Leaf and Volt? Some manganese. ;) We still need to keep the voltage below about 4.1 and stop when cells reach 3.0V.

The most critical part to remember is that cell life (calendar and cycles), and the effect on cell degradation mostly come down to pack design and management decisions - not on the basic cell chemistry. EVs aren't laptops or cell phones and the battery decisions start with different goals.

Andy

edit...sorry, didn't connect the dots very well.
 
While some may not like using standard LI battery cells, it is operating in currently available vehicles.
Yes, very expensive, but spreading FUD ($30,000 replacement cost :lol: ) about other electric car makers that actually have vehicles being sold, does a huge disservice to the idea of EVs.
 
Zythryn said:
While some may not like using standard LI battery cells, it is operating in currently available vehicles.
Yes, very expensive, but spreading FUD ($30,000 replacement cost :lol: ) about other electric car makers that actually have vehicles being sold, does a huge disservice to the idea of EVs.

You mean saying Tesla battery replacement is $30k is FUD ? Well then, Musk is guilty of that.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/02/tesla-battery-pack-replacement-would-be-36000-today-musk-says.html

Tesla Battery Pack Replacement Would be $36,000 Today, Musk Says
 
Yep, the only FUD I was "spreading" was from Musk himself...and I even took off 6 thousand as I figured not even tesla would charge the full amount for replacing a battery to a paying customer.

Gavin


Ps I FULLy support EVs...as a mod here and at Aptera. But I want affordable mainstream EVs. When Tesla makes their promised 30k EV, I will applaud them...till then they are the same as Ferrari...pretty, but elite. And very very niche. Evs need to be very very not niche.
 
According to the year and a half old article, a customer can pay $12,000 today for a replacement battery in 7 years. So yes, I call you post FUD as you gave one part of a story which is likely out of date.
I am glad you support inexpensive EVs.
Personally I support the all,as it isn't just the EVs people buy that is going to make a difference. It is the EVs people want to drive, the EVs that change the image of EVs being overgrown golf carts, the EVs that capture imagination and get the next young kid to become an engineer that will advance the technology in the next giant step.
Yes the affordable EVs are a huge piece of the puzzle, but don't throw out the rest of the puzzle pieces just because they don't fit your needs.
 
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