GRA
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:28 pm

Via IEVS:
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Gets Official EPA Rating – 22-Mile Electric Range, Just 25 MPG
https://insideevs.com/mitsubishi-outlander-phev-gets-official-epa-rating-22-mile-electric-range-just-25-mpg/

The MPG figure is combined. While the 22 mile AER is fine, I think that 25 mpg rating, along with the 3 year delay in arriving here and mediocre performance means any chance of the Outlander PHEV seeing significant sales here seems improbable, given that there are likely to be much better choices in the not too distant future. I'd think at least 30 and more likely 35+ mpg combined would be needed to offset the much higher price versus the competition. Its sales rely on it being the only semi-affordable AWD PHCUV, with nothing else really going for it. Maybe that's enough but I doubt it, given our low gas prices.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

jjeff
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:56 pm

^^^ +1
That would sum up my opinion, from someone who may have been interested in this vehicle :)
If I were interested in an ICE SUV I'd go for the Chevy Equinox I saw last weekend. Roomy, 1500 tow capacity, 137 hp(240 ft.lbs torque), 28 city, 39 hwy and 32 combined, this was for the 1.6L turbo diesel, AWD drops the hwy to 38 but everything else remains the same.
Last edited by jjeff on Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
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cwerdna
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:03 pm

GRA wrote:The MPG figure is combined. While the 22 mile AER is fine, I think that 25 mpg rating, along with the 3 year delay in arriving here and mediocre performance means any chance of the Outlander PHEV seeing significant sales here seems improbable, given that there are likely to be much better choices in the not too distant future. I'd think at least 30 and more likely 35+ mpg combined would be needed to offset the much higher price versus the competition. Its sales rely on it being the only semi-affordable AWD PHCUV, with nothing else really going for it. Maybe that's enough but I doubt it, given our low gas prices.

I'm confused. A bunch of your statements seem contradictory.

Who are the cheaper competitors? Which other PHEV CUVs/SUVs are cheaper?

While I agree that 25 mpg combined is a bit disappointing figuring the vehicle should operate like a hybrid once the battery's depleted and thus have mileage similar to other hybrid SUVs, but why is that so important given low gas prices? If gas prices are low, doesn't that mean people don't really care about gas mileage?

As for "more likely 35+ mpg combined", which non-plugin CUVs/SUVs are similar in size and interior volume range get that now? And again, if gas prices are "low", would people care about that?

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DanCar
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:21 pm

cwerdna wrote:...Who are the cheaper competitors? Which other PHEV CUVs/SUVs are cheaper?

As for "more likely 35+ mpg combined", which non-plugin CUVs/SUVs are similar in size and interior volume range get that now?...
Kia Niro CUV plug-in should be available in a few weeks. 46 mpg. Lease deal in California is $260 a month, $2k down. The Outlander is bigger though.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/20 ... ive-review

GRA
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:40 pm

cwerdna wrote:
GRA wrote:The MPG figure is combined. While the 22 mile AER is fine, I think that 25 mpg rating, along with the 3 year delay in arriving here and mediocre performance means any chance of the Outlander PHEV seeing significant sales here seems improbable, given that there are likely to be much better choices in the not too distant future. I'd think at least 30 and more likely 35+ mpg combined would be needed to offset the much higher price versus the competition. Its sales rely on it being the only semi-affordable AWD PHCUV, with nothing else really going for it. Maybe that's enough but I doubt it, given our low gas prices.

I'm confused. A bunch of your statements seem contradictory.

Who are the cheaper competitors? Which other PHEV CUVs/SUVs are cheaper?

While I agree that 25 mpg combined is a bit disappointing figuring the vehicle should operate like a hybrid once the battery's depleted and thus have mileage similar to other hybrid SUVs, but why is that so important given low gas prices? If gas prices are low, doesn't that mean people don't really care about gas mileage?

As for "more likely 35+ mpg combined", which non-plugin CUVs/SUVs are similar in size and interior volume range get that now? And again, if gas prices are "low", would people care about that?

Low gas prices mean most people simply won't be bothered to get a PHEV, especially if it's priced $10k more than an ICE which gets better combined mpg and has advantages in other areas (performance, handling, reliability etc.). Examples: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=noform&path=7&year=2018&make=Honda&model=CR-V%20AWD&srchtyp=ymm

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2018_Subaru_Forester.shtml

I think "25 mpg combined is a bit disappointing" is a huge understatement - this vehicle should be getting considerably better mpg in CS mode than a conventional ICE to justify its much higher price, even allowing for the savings of being able to commute largely on electricity. It's just a mediocre AWD CUV in every way other than the fact that you can get a PHEV version - a few years ago that might have been enough, but IMO isn't now. Does that clear things up?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

cwerdna
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:53 pm

DanCar wrote:
cwerdna wrote:...Who are the cheaper competitors? Which other PHEV CUVs/SUVs are cheaper?

As for "more likely 35+ mpg combined", which non-plugin CUVs/SUVs are similar in size and interior volume range get that now?...
Kia Niro CUV plug-in should be available in a few weeks. 46 mpg. Lease deal in California is $260 a month, $2k down. The Outlander is bigger though.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/20 ... ive-review

Regrading Niro, I missed the PHEV (https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... s&id=39799) when going thru power searches like https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSe ... &tabView=0. I did see the other Niros and am scratching my head. I've never seen one and am puzzled by their (for non-PHEV versions) rather high combined mpg ratings coupled with high interior volume (per Specs tab of https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... 2&id=39753 101 + 22 cu feet).

I wonder if those Niros are too good to be true and whether the values were confirmed by the EPA's own testing. I wonder which of these are true:
- Kia cheated
- Kia made procedural errors or if they pulled something like a "Hyundai" (https://hyundaimpginfo.com/aboutsettlement) or a Ford (https://www.autoblog.com/2013/08/19/for ... pg-number/ then https://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/17/for ... ax-hybrid/). The Ford C-Max Hybrid started out at 47 mpg combined/47 city/47 highway, which was (somehow) much better than the ~42 mpg combined and weaker Prius v wagon. But, Cleanmpg did some real world testing and found the opposite (http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index ... ads/46762/). It ended up being downrated several times to end up at 40 mpg combined/42 city and 37 highway.
- they actually get amazing real world mpg
- the currently published EPA mpg ratings are actually correct per EPA verification
- they were able to game the EPA test really well w/o any sort of cheating
- the ratings result in some significant compromise (e.g. reliability or high non-CO2 emissions)

Notice the huge gap after the Niro? 41 mpg combined (and dead for US market) Prius v wagon then 34 and 33 mpg combined Rogue Hybrids? (Ignore the diesels) Then notice the 32 mpg combined Rav4 hybrid and so on...

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

AndyH
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:19 am

GRA wrote:Via IEVS:
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Gets Official EPA Rating – 22-Mile Electric Range, Just 25 MPG
https://insideevs.com/mitsubishi-outlander-phev-gets-official-epa-rating-22-mile-electric-range-just-25-mpg/

The MPG figure is combined. While the 22 mile AER is fine, I think that 25 mpg rating, along with the 3 year delay in arriving here and mediocre performance means any chance of the Outlander PHEV seeing significant sales here seems improbable, given that there are likely to be much better choices in the not too distant future. I'd think at least 30 and more likely 35+ mpg combined would be needed to offset the much higher price versus the competition. Its sales rely on it being the only semi-affordable AWD PHCUV, with nothing else really going for it. Maybe that's enough but I doubt it, given our low gas prices.

Yes, the quoted 25 MPG figure is combined, but more importantly, it's the fuel economy when the car's running on gas only - in other words - there's NO electricity to use. Here's a Monroney sticker - "gasoline only"
https://www.mitsubishicars.com/rs/file/monroney?vin=JA4J24A50JZ029313

Out in the wild, when running as a regular hybrid (charge sustaining), mileage on a long drive without much concern for driving style approaches 40.

I'll know more next week - I'm picking one up on Minnesota and importing it into the Republic. And yes, I'll be using CHAdeMO on the 1200 mile drive back.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

jjeff
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:44 am

AndyH wrote:I'll know more next week - I'm picking one up on Minnesota and importing it into the Republic. And yes, I'll be using CHAdeMO on the 1200 mile drive back.

MN! what dealer in the Twin Cities will you be picking it up? Did you get any deal off sticker?
If on the North end of town, don't forget to QC on the South side of town at Walser Nissan where I35W meets I35E on the way South, free and generally no one using it. Of course, owning a Nissan I'm not sure how they'd react to non Nissan vehicles..... the EVSEs are outside their service doors to the right, and again don't seem to get used all that much.
Please post back here on MNL with your experiences, while I occasionally visit the Outlander forum, more often than not I'm around here as we get lots more traffic than the Outlander forum :)
I'm personally disappointed about the ICE MPG but I will be interested to hear back from someone using it for a long trip(with relatively few places to charge along the way) something I'd do several times/year with such a vehicle. The Prius Prime is very tempting with it's 50+ MPG ICE but I'd really prefer something larger and higher off the ground, the Mitusi would probably be ideal.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

AndyH
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Location: San Antonio

Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:08 pm

jjeff wrote:
AndyH wrote:I'll know more next week - I'm picking one up on Minnesota and importing it into the Republic. And yes, I'll be using CHAdeMO on the 1200 mile drive back.

MN! what dealer in the Twin Cities will you be picking it up? Did you get any deal off sticker?
If on the North end of town, don't forget to QC on the South side of town at Walser Nissan where I35W meets I35E on the way South, free and generally no one using it. Of course, owning a Nissan I'm not sure how they'd react to non Nissan vehicles..... the EVSEs are outside their service doors to the right, and again don't seem to get used all that much.
Please post back here on MNL with your experiences, while I occasionally visit the Outlander forum, more often than not I'm around here as we get lots more traffic than the Outlander forum :)
I'm personally disappointed about the ICE MPG but I will be interested to hear back from someone using it for a long trip(with relatively few places to charge along the way) something I'd do several times/year with such a vehicle. The Prius Prime is very tempting with it's 50+ MPG ICE but I'd really prefer something larger and higher off the ground, the Mitusi would probably be ideal.


Hey jjeff - I'll be visiting White Bear. I haven't been able to find info on invoice or dealer hold-back, so not sure I'll be the patron saint of good deals. ;) So far Mitsubishi's knocking $2k off, and the dealer's tossing in $850. There's a military discount as well. So far we're about $3400 under sticker.

Thanks for the tip about the QC at Walser! There are check-ins from other vehicle types, so it should be fine. I've been guestimating stops using PlugShare and Ch@rgepoint's maps and it looks like there will be plenty of miles to drive where I'll be able to check the 'regular hybrid' fuel economy. Man, it's gonna be cold weather driving, though. :shock: I have PHEV Watchdog installed on the phone as well. I'll def report back.

I agree - things are really quiet on the Mitsu forum.

I've been waiting for this car for a couple of years. I've really enjoyed my last three years with my smart, and most of my driving is well within the 75 mile range with the car. Even though I planned to 'just' rent a car for road trips, and did a couple of times, it got to where I simply didn't take trips. I'm looking forward to driving, using a CHAdeMO ch@rger finally, impromptu trips to the coast, tossing a telescope in the back, or heading to the rifle range without breaking the guns in half to get them into the car. ;) I'm planning on enjoying the car until the wheels fall off. :lol:

Here's the owner's manual: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0pvi42k4fyjeyfo/18%20PHEV%20Owners%20Manual.pdf?dl=0
Or you can 'borrow' a VIN from one of the Monroney stickers and make an account on the Mitsubishi Owners Portal:
https://www.mitsubishicars.com/owners

Here's the 'transmission': https://www.gkn.com/globalassets/downloads/iaa-downloads/multimode-etransmission-en.pdf
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

jjeff
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:28 pm

White Bear is probably the biggest dealer of Mitsubishi's in town, I was kind of thinking if anyone had one it would be them.
I was going to ask you to comment on how well the heater worked in very cold temps in EV mode, something you might not run into in TX :lol:
One of the things that turned me off to several PHEVs several years ago was in colder temps(20s and colder) the car insisted in running in ICE mode for heat, I believe users came up with a hack for the Volt but I don't think it was around when I was looking('13-'14) so I ended up with the limited range Leaf where I'd never have to worry about the ICE kicking in! Living in MN we can have temps below 30 for 5 or more months/year, reducing the benefit of a PHEV considerably if they have such a limit. Hopefully your Outlander will be fully charged or they'll have a QC to get it that way as I believe some PHEVs might limit EV only driving or heating if SOC is low.
I'll have to find time to head to White Bear to see the Outlander, I'll call first as they may only have a limited supply. I hope they'd have one inside(a BIG deal testing cars in MN winters) to be able to sit in and kick the tires. It's kind of miserable checking out a car when it's below or near zero :(
I test drove a Bolt a couple weeks ago and it was -10F :( and of course the Bolt was outside! Lots of SUVs and pickups in the heated dealership but low volume EVs or PHEVs are delighted to outside :x
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

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