GRA
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:02 pm

AndyH wrote:
GRA wrote:Via IEVS:
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Gets Official EPA Rating – 22-Mile Electric Range, Just 25 MPG
https://insideevs.com/mitsubishi-outlander-phev-gets-official-epa-rating-22-mile-electric-range-just-25-mpg/

The MPG figure is combined. While the 22 mile AER is fine, I think that 25 mpg rating, along with the 3 year delay in arriving here and mediocre performance means any chance of the Outlander PHEV seeing significant sales here seems improbable, given that there are likely to be much better choices in the not too distant future. I'd think at least 30 and more likely 35+ mpg combined would be needed to offset the much higher price versus the competition. Its sales rely on it being the only semi-affordable AWD PHCUV, with nothing else really going for it. Maybe that's enough but I doubt it, given our low gas prices.

Yes, the quoted 25 MPG figure is combined, but more importantly, it's the fuel economy when the car's running on gas only - in other words - there's NO electricity to use. Here's a Monroney sticker - "gasoline only"
https://www.mitsubishicars.com/rs/file/monroney?vin=JA4J24A50JZ029313

Out in the wild, when running as a regular hybrid (charge sustaining), mileage on a long drive without much concern for driving style approaches 40.

I'll know more next week - I'm picking one up on Minnesota and importing it into the Republic. And yes, I'll be using CHAdeMO on the 1200 mile drive back.

Thanks for the comments Andy, haven't heard from you for a while, and I look forward to reading your experiences with it.

What I'm mainly concerned with on a PHEV (one that has a real hold mode) is Hwy mpg running solely on gas. To me, anyone who cares about maximizing their efficiency and minimizing local pollution will save the battery for urban stop and go, where it provides the greatest benefit, making City MPG irrelevant. What I've not yet been able to find is a breakdown of the Outlander's City and Hwy MPG, but the combined rating indicates that Hwy rating won't be anything special, probably under 30. Mitsubishi has said they only expect 3 to 4k annual sales here: we'll see whether they're being the un-Tesla and low-balling or that's really what they expect. If the latter, we'll also see if they're proven wrong and the car's a smash hit as it's been in Europe and elsewhere - as stated above, I have serious doubts.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

AndyH
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:01 pm

GRA wrote:Thanks for the comments Andy, haven't heard from you for a while, and I look forward to reading your experiences with it.

What I'm mainly concerned with on a PHEV (one that has a real hold mode) is Hwy mpg running solely on gas. To me, anyone who cares about maximizing their efficiency and minimizing local pollution will save the battery for urban stop and go, where it provides the greatest benefit, making City MPG irrelevant. What I've not yet been able to find is a breakdown of the Outlander's City and Hwy MPG, but the combined rating indicates that Hwy rating won't be anything special, probably under 30. Mitsubishi has said they only expect 3 to 4k annual sales here: we'll see whether they're being the un-Tesla and low-balling or that's really what they expect. If the latter, we'll also see if they're proven wrong and the car's a smash hit as it's been in Europe and elsewhere - as stated above, I have serious doubts.

Glad to help, Guy. I hope to have something useful to share. At this point, I only have 'gut' level thoughts. We'll see how they fit with reality in a bit.

My guess, though, is that the highway mileage in 'regular hybrid' mode will exceed the EPA ratings. They changed their methodology when I was still driving my Passat TDI. My economy was within a few percent of the EPA until they changed their recipe - they dropped the Passat about 10 MPG. In my smart, with a 68 mile EPA range, I can normally get 75 miles driving it like I stole it, 80 is easy, and I've hit 102 miles (though that took a bit of work and just a little stress).

Most of my driving will continue to be in my local area and I expect it will be 100% electric. I expect to exceed the 74 MPGe rating in that mode.

There's a gent in Oz that's been hyper-documenting his efficiency. His highway mileage on holiday while using charge hold was equivalent to 37 MPG US.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCwvk634ZX1R1_qhfRyczOg
EDIT...but at what speed? "39.6/114 kph" -- 24.5 mph average and a top speed of 70.
/EDIT

Texas' Outlanders are just arriving, and most so far are the GT trim. I wanted a grey SEL, and I only found grey in MN, WI, and IL. The folks in the Twin Cities have gotten three shipments of Outlanders so far and most of them (5 of 6 from the first shipment right before Christmas) have been sold before the cars hit the dealership. That bodes well, I think.

ETA... In this video: https://youtu.be/S7KwNPwSUL0 Andy starts with a full charge and gets a bit of L2 on the way. For the 400 km/248 mile drive, he tried the method of running the engine for 50km to charge, then 50 in EV mode. He got 36.8 MPG.
Last edited by AndyH on Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jjeff
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:15 pm

Looked at the manual, thanks AndyH! and a few things stood out.

Even in EV mode the ICE may kick in under the following conditions:
"When quick acceleration is applied". Hopefully it will truly be only when flooring the vehicle or a hard press, our old Prius is ridiculous, any press of the accelerator results in the ICE starting.

When the "air conditioner" is operating. Now I'm not sure what they mean by this, do they truly mean the A/C or are they talking heater? If A/C living in TX I couldn't see how you could drive in EV very often....And speaking of heater, I'd hope it would have some form of electric heat, a heat pump like the Prius Prime would be best, but at a minimum would be an electric heater like the S model Leafs.

"In cold weather" again not a good sign for MN :cry:

Later they say, in response to if the vehicle runs out of fuel and is running only on EV:
"the propulsion power of the vehicle may be reduced" guess this makes sense.

"the heater for the air conditioner and the front window defogger will be degraded" not sure what to make of this statement other than to say it sounds like it may have some heat on EV only?? and again it sounds like no ICE no air conditioning(cold air) which would help defog the front windows?? I can't believe the A/C(compressor) wouldn't be electric like the Leaf or other EVs but the manual is sure confusing. Later in the manual, they do say it has an electric heater but no mention of an electric compressor.

"repeatedly performing quick charging can reduce battery capacity. Normal charging is recommended unless quick charging is necessary"
Sounds like no TMS like the Leaf??

"it is recommended that your vehicle be stored at temperatures below 77 degrees to maximize battery life" but they also say:
"do not store your vehicle at ambient temps over 131 degrees for over 24hrs" so it sounds that like the Leaf limiting heat is important in maximizing battery life. Oh and for our Canadians(and Northern Minnesotans) :D don't store the vehicle in temps below -25c(-13F) for 7 days or more, also at -28c(-18F) motor output is restricted and at -30c(-22F) BATTERY TOO COLD will be displayed and NO vehicle use will be allowed(this will be a deal breaker for some if true, Northern MN or much of Canada where temps can get -30F or even -60F) but not for Texans ;) They do talk about a battery heater that may be available on some vehicles, lets hope that like later Leafs(post '11) its standard on all N. American vehicles.

"when the battery is new the estimated EV cruising range with a fully charged battery is 37 miles based on the EPA laboratory test commonly called the combined range"......interesting, better than what I remember :)

More notes from manual:
EV priority mode is canceled when cruise is enabled......not sure if this means EV use is not allowed when using cruise or just the "EV priority" mode.

No EV use with speeds over 75mph.....not that I regularly go over 75 on my Leaf, although I do approach it regularly, I have been known to hit 80 ;)
No EV use when the defogger switch is pressed, which again leads me to believe the compressor is tied to the ICE.
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AndyH
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:34 pm

jjeff wrote:Looked at the manual, thanks AndyH! and a few things stood out.

You're welcome! My next task is to find a shop manual.

jjeff wrote:Even in EV mode the ICE may kick in under the following conditions:
"When quick acceleration is applied". Hopefully it will truly be only when flooring the vehicle or a hard press, our old Prius is ridiculous, any press of the accelerator results in the ICE starting.

When the "air conditioner" is operating. Now I'm not sure what they mean by this, do they truly mean the A/C or are they talking heater? If A/C living in TX I couldn't see how you could drive in EV very often....

Just the AC, it appears. The AC compressor is electric and will run from the battery pack, so summer EV driving should be fine here as long as the battery's charged. Also, the car will automatically activate the AC to cool the battery pack as long as the car's in 'ready' mode. The battery has active thermal management in the form of conditioned air.

jjeff wrote:And speaking of heater, I'd hope it would have some form of electric heat, a heat pump like the Prius Prime would be best, but at a minimum would be an electric heater like the S model Leafs.
It has a PTC electric heater like early LEAFs and also can use engine heat. Should be fine in the Great White North as well. ;)

jjeff wrote:"the heater for the air conditioner and the front window defogger will be degraded" not sure what to make of this statement other than to say it sounds like it may have some heat on EV only?? and again it sounds like no ICE no air conditioning(cold air) which would help defog the front windows?? I can't believe the A/C(compressor) wouldn't be electric like the Leaf or other EVs but the manual is sure confusing. Later in the manual, they do say it has an electric heater but no mention of an electric compressor.

Window defogging usually uses both heat and AC - so if the battery's low the engine will run to provide power if needed. I recall hearing that there's a way to get the car to flow air to the windshield without activating the AC to defog...I think it's in a Fully Charged vid.

https://youtu.be/MFMitmZgaCY

Nope...that's not it. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit... http://phev.club/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=160
(Note that Europe has more trim levels than the 2 for the US. it looks like at least one of the low-end Euro models doesn't have electric heat. Also note how beneficial pre-conditioning is. I'm not surprised - I learned the same lesson with my smart. A pre-warmed battery is a happy battery. LOL )
/Edit

Also from the manual - there's info there about the fuel system. The car will run the engine at least every 3 months to burn four gallons of gas. The Volt does the same sort of thing. I like that EV mode is functional enough that the engineers had to protect the fuel system. ;)

Also...the car is fitted with a proper deep-cycle 12 V battery - it doesn't use a regular starter battery like smart and LEAF use.
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AndyH
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:23 pm

After one winter storm, two cancelled flights through Houston, and 1300 miles of driving later I'm home with my car. And man, what a sweet ride this is.

The drive system is seamless. EV, regen, series and parallel hybrid are smooth and one can't tell what's happening unless they look at a display. The ICE is very quiet and only ocassionally can be heard or felt. The only time I've actually felt it start was a 5°F morning in Des Moines when I started the car and asked for max heat to melt ice from the windows.

The computers seem to prefer EV mode whenever there's enough battery capacity. It happily cruises down the interstate at 70 mph in EV mode while pumping out heat and feeding the heated seats. (And because I didn't realize that the AC is handled as separate function that isn't automatically shut off, I learned that the car will cruise down the road in EV mode with the AC running, heated seats on, and 80° air coming out of the vents.)

Battery hold, battery charge, and EV mode work well and on a long trip I couldn't find any significant fuel economy difference when I drove 100 miles in each mode.

The EPA rating of 25 mpg seems legit on the road, but seems to be a worst case number. I got 24.7 from a not-yet-broken-in car, in temperatures that ranged from -7 to 36 (and it was below freezing until I got to Austin - about 70 miles from home), while running the AC and heat most of the trip. Most of the trip was on cruise control at 70, and about 300 miles were at 65. I wanted to get home so wasn't trying to drive for economy - I was only keeping things calm for the engine break-in. Yeah, I'll be taking plenty of drives to explore the fuel economy once I learn how to talk to the computers. ;)

I stopped at 4 CHAdeMO chargers on the way down and only got one good charge. Two were broken and the third lost its network connection so couldn't authorize a charge card or take a command from a cellphone app.

The base car has leather seats, blind spot warning on both sides, backup camera, Apple/Android phone integration (text to speech, hands free calls, google maps on the center display with text to speech and voice commands, etc. Mitsubishi's fixed the security flaw in the car's wifi system and the remote control functions work smoothly. (This was the only annoyance in my time with the smart - pre-cooling the cabin relied on the internet connection to Germany, and for their cellphone call to the car. In three years I've had exactly two successful pre-cool events.)

As soon as I remember how to do oil changes again ;) I'll get AMSOIL into the engine, start oil analysis, and get the change interval walked out well past the default 6 month/7500 mile recommendation. Once summer hits, I'll see how the computers like E85. In the meantime, all of my six local drives have been 100% electric, even with heat running and both heated seats on high.

I'm very happy with the car, and very happy that I flew to MN - the folks at White Bear Mitsu were great and I had the best experience with a dealer that I've ever had. Three of their staff own Outlander PHEVs - when my salesperson walked me through the car and helped me set up my phone (thanks again, Nancy!) she was able to answer deep questions from personal experience - priceless! I wish I could drive up for their customer pot-luck later this month. :)
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GRA
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:41 pm

Thanks, I look forward to future reports.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

AndyH
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:06 pm

Today's mission was the 53 mile round trip to a local farm for a couple of gallons of raw milk.

69% electric. 67.2 MPG

The outbound drive was 98% electric. The return trip was a combination of EV and series hybrid mode. I drove at or near the speed limit and stayed with traffic. This was a normal drive where I used B0 to coast when able, and kept acceleration reasonable. This was a default drive - I did not use "EV" mode or "ECO" mode.

Image

Image

Image

Data collection: http://phevwatchdog.net/

Also...the defrost/AC thing... The car automatically activates the AC when one selects a climate control mode that blows on the windshield. Poking the AC switch once turns the AC off and regular air continues to blow on the windshield.
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DanCar
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:03 pm

How disappointing did it feel not to be able to drive all electric?

GRA
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:23 pm

Are you stuck with metric for the data screens, or do you have a choice? I can convert easily enough, but I'd think the average american buyer would want Imperial units.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

AndyH
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:41 pm

DanCar wrote:How disappointing did it feel not to be able to drive all electric?

It wasn't at all, actually.

For the past three years, my sole vehicle has been my smart. Even though the ride to the farm is technically within the 68 mile EPA range for the smart, and well within my normal 80-85 mile range when I drive carefully, I can only drive there and back in spring and fall. Using heat or AC means I either need to keep the speed under 55 (which isn't popular on 70 MPH roads), as well as pre-heating/pre-cooling from shore power and making sure the battery's at 100% SOC. Yes, it's possible, and yes, it can be done, but since there's no charging available enroute, it's a pain. What it means 'in real life' is that I don't make cheese or yogurt in the winter or summer. The drive today was effortless - I got in, drove out, and drove home. When I made that trip in my Ranger, the MPG would have been about 19. In my Passat TDI, it would have been about 45.

ETA... FWIW... For the past 6 or so years I've been experimenting with my own view of transportation. I was without a 4-wheeled vehicle for about 8 months. I ran a Chinese electric scooter for a couple of years. I bicycled to the grocery store with a backpack a couple of times a week. I ordered a LEAF in 2010, then cancelled it when the battery problem came to light. Then, thanks to a military couple that ordered a smart but the AF moved them before the car came in, I was able to lease a smart for the past three years. Those experiences have made me very aware of the strengths and limitations of various modes of travel in my corner of the world. There are plenty of L2 chargepoints around the city, for example, but very few outside of town - so the city car is stuck in the city. If I have to evacuate in the event of a hurricane or flash flood, I can put a bag or 3 plus the cat in the smart, drive up the hill 80 miles, and then I'm walking - there's no charge infrastructure and the car's useless at that point. That's an issue. If I had a LEAF, I could possibly reach the closest CHAdeMO location when the car's relatively new, but the heat here isn't helpful for the LEAF's passive cooling. I'm a ham radio operator and in order to be able to deploy should emergency communications be needed, I have to be able to get where I'm going, and need to carry some gear. EVing in Texas is a very different experience than EVing on the west coast.
Last edited by AndyH on Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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