Zythryn
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:47 pm

GRA wrote:Nah, that's just I-94 from Billings to Fargo, which was on the '2016' (and '2015') maps. As I've been saying for the past couple of years that that section of I-94 should be the very last primary interstate in the contiguous 48 to be completed, I look forward to it making a return appearance on the '2018' map!
...


Good call, I didn't remember they had any planned for ND, but there it was.
They do have four more in SD and a couple in southern MN (looks like Rochester is one, yay!).

I've always been surprised at how dismissive you are at what Tesla accomplishes.
For a private company to do magnitudes more than what much larger, more well established companies are doing is astounding.
I'll take 80% of shooting for the moon over succeeding in doing nothing any day :)
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GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:37 pm

Zythryn wrote:
GRA wrote:Nah, that's just I-94 from Billings to Fargo, which was on the '2016' (and '2015') maps. As I've been saying for the past couple of years that that section of I-94 should be the very last primary interstate in the contiguous 48 to be completed, I look forward to it making a return appearance on the '2018' map!
...


Good call, I didn't remember they had any planned for ND, but there it was.
They do have four more in SD and a couple in southern MN (looks like Rochester is one, yay!).

I've always been surprised at how dismissive you are at what Tesla accomplishes.
For a private company to do magnitudes more than what much larger, more well established companies are doing is astounding.
I'll take 80% of shooting for the moon over succeeding in doing nothing any day :)

Not dismissive, just not willing to accept repetitive hype over actual results. I've said repeatedly that Tesla has accomplished far more than anyone else in looking at BEVs as a system and implementing that, but I do wish that they'd stop publicly announcing goals that they have no realistic chance of meeting, and show some maturity. If they want to set an internal goal of building superchargers between here and the moon by Memorial Day, fine, but don't tell the public that. Instead of announcing 100% and only achieving 70% of that, they should be announcing 60% and achieving 100+% of that. Or, to quote my old sig, under-promise and over-deliver rather than the opposite.

IMO GM did that with both the Volt and Bolt; Nissan obviously didn't with the LEAF. For that reason, I'm a big fan of stealth SC sites (such as the one that just popped up in Mt. Gilead, OH), as they can help to cover any shortfalls in the announced routes - people like _pleasant_ surprises. Even so, out of well over 100 (forget the exact number that was on the '2016' map) new U.S. SCs that were promised for 2016, the current total is 85 [Edit: 86 including Mt. Gilead], and they might get a few more before the end of the year. Seeing as how they completed 102 last year, and they still haven't finished many of the major primary interstates (those with 1 or 2 digits ending in '0' or '5') promised this year let alone done much off them, count me underwhelmed but not surprised. Some people see the glass as half full, others as half empty. I see it as having 50% of its internal volume occupied by air, and 50% by liquid ;)
Last edited by GRA on Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

scottf200
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:58 pm

Re: GRA: mainly the 2016 map retitled
I don't think so. There are considerably more dots on the 2017 than the planned 2016.
I created this from saved image. not perfect but a reasonable way to view it.
planned-2016-vs-planned-2017
Image
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dgpcolorado
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:05 pm

GRA wrote:
Zythryn wrote:2017 map is up!

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

Without checking every dot, on a quick look it appears to be mainly the 2016 map retitled, i.e. I-10/20, I-40, I-80, I-94, I-25, I-29 from I-94 to Winnipeg etc. all completed, plus some infill and a little bit of off-interstate expansion - looks like Alamosa and Salida on U.S. 285 in Colorado, plus maybe Walsenburg on I-25, and Kremmling on U.S. 40. Glacier will finally be semi-accessible, with an SC in the Kalispell - W. Glacier area (plus the three on I-25 in Helena, Great Falls and Shelby that were on the 2016 map), and Kayenta has also rolled over. Looks like there may be one coming around Payson, AZ too - I would have thought Globe and Show Low would also show up around the same time.
Here on my turf I'm surprised and pleased to see Salida and Alamosa on the map. Salida will serve as a backup when rock slides close I-70 and Alamosa opens up the San Luis Valley (Great Sand Dunes NP) as well as US 160 between I-25 and Durango (Farmington Supercharger Station). Those are major routes for locals as well as visitors. They've also got a couple in northern Colorado in the Winter Park and Steamboat Springs (or Craig) area. And, in addition to my much hoped-for Kayenta, I notice that I-25 in New Mexico and I-10 and I-80 would be finished off. Some of those are already in the works, as you know. There are also many more locations in California, presumably to deal with congestion there. And the Seattle area gets some Supercharger Stations, at last; I had to charge on L2 for a visit to Kirkland last spring; my hosts live in a high-rise condo there so no destination charging.
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GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:11 pm

scottf200 wrote:Re: GRA: mainly the 2016 map retitled
I don't think so. There are considerably more dots on the 2017 than the planned 2016.
I created this from saved image. not perfect but a reasonable way to view it.
planned-2016-vs-planned-2017
Image

Sure there are a lot more dots, although the majority of them seem to be infill on existing routes rather than expansion; both are needed. Hopefully someone on TMC has the patience to count all of the new ones.

Edit: Here's a good comparo, world-wide, from TMC (post #31, a few above scottf200's, for those who prefer it without the blinking): https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 551/page-2
Last edited by GRA on Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:31 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
GRA wrote:
Zythryn wrote:2017 map is up!

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

Without checking every dot, on a quick look it appears to be mainly the 2016 map retitled, i.e. I-10/20, I-40, I-80, I-94, I-25, I-29 from I-94 to Winnipeg etc. all completed, plus some infill and a little bit of off-interstate expansion - looks like Alamosa and Salida on U.S. 285 in Colorado, plus maybe Walsenburg on I-25, and Kremmling on U.S. 40. Glacier will finally be semi-accessible, with an SC in the Kalispell - W. Glacier area (plus the three on I-25 in Helena, Great Falls and Shelby that were on the 2016 map), and Kayenta has also rolled over. Looks like there may be one coming around Payson, AZ too - I would have thought Globe and Show Low would also show up around the same time.
Here on my turf I'm surprised and pleased to see Salida and Alamosa on the map. Salida will serve as a backup when rock slides close I-70 and Alamosa opens up the San Luis Valley (Great Sand Dunes NP) as well as US 160 between I-25 and Durango (Farmington Supercharger Station). Those are major routes for locals as well as visitors. They've also got a couple in northern Colorado in the Winter Park and Steamboat Springs (or Craig) area. And, in addition to my much hoped-for Kayenta, I notice that I-25 in New Mexico and I-10 and I-80 would be finished off. Some of those are already in the works, as you know. There are also many more locations in California, presumably to deal with congestion there. And the Seattle area gets some Supercharger Stations, at last; I had to charge on L2 for a visit to Kirkland last spring; my hosts live in a high-rise condo there so no destination charging.

Maybe more important for you, did you notice that they're going (we hope) to infill I-84, shortening some of the legs that we talked about? Burley/Rupert, plus I'm guessing Mountain Home and probably Ontario, OR; all are obvious, and needed.

I'd really like to see them in both Cortez (gateway to Mesa Verde, and a good distance from both Moab and Kayenta) and Durango, plus do something about U.S. 50 (Montrose & Gunnison plus Poncha Springs/Salida), and/or move the Montrose one down to Ridgway, although I'd think that would make GJT to Gunnison (127 miles + elevation) difficult in winter. Montrose - Durango strikes me as a bit far (107 miles) in winter given the passes, but you'd have a better handle on that than I do. I do think it would benefit from an SC in Silverton or maybe Ouray if Ridgway isn't available, but given the option I always prefer putting SCs at junctions, as that's generally the most convenient as well as the least expensive choice.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

scottf200
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:56 pm

GRA wrote:
scottf200 wrote:Re: GRA: mainly the 2016 map retitled
I don't think so. There are considerably more dots on the 2017 than the planned 2016.
I created this from saved image. not perfect but a reasonable way to view it.
planned-2016-vs-planned-2017
Image

Sure there are a lot more dots, although the majority of them seem to be infill on existing routes rather than expansion; both are needed. Hopefully someone on TMC has the patience to count all of the new ones.


Haha. Well I was just pointing out it is considerably different than your "mainly the 2016 map" statement. Looks like there are at least another 120-150 additional dots. Filling in some diagonal routes as well as Model 3 or S60s. Just stare at a few of the W, S, lower midwest, E states to see several dots added to most states.
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dgpcolorado
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:01 pm

GRA wrote:Maybe more important for you, did you notice that they're going (we hope) to infill I-84, shortening some of the legs that we talked about? Burley/Rupert, plus I'm guessing Mountain Home and probably Ontario, OR; all are obvious, and needed.
No, I didn't notice that, thanks for mentioning it. That would be helpful for my old slow charging S60; I make the trip to Portland and Seattle once a year (in 2017 I plan to do it in August for the eclipse).
I'd really like to see them in both Cortez (gateway to Mesa Verde, and a good distance from both Moab and Kayenta) and Durango, plus do something about U.S. 50 (Montrose & Gunnison plus Poncha Springs/Salida), and/or move the Montrose one down to Ridgway, although I'd think that would make GJT to Gunnison (127 miles + elevation) difficult in winter. Montrose - Durango strikes me as a bit far (107 miles) in winter given the passes, but you'd have a better handle on that than I do. I do think it would benefit from an SC in Silverton or maybe Ouray if Ridgway isn't available, but given the option I always prefer putting SCs at junctions, as that's generally the most convenient as well as the least expensive choice.
Montrose to Durango is actually pretty easy because the speeds between Ouray and Silverton are very low and lead to great range despite the huge elevation changes. I could easily do Farmington to Montrose in my S60, for example. But Durango is too near to Farmington to make a Supercharger Station worthwhile until they are really filling in secondary routes. I do like the idea of one at Cortez since Mesa Verde NP is difficult from Blanding or Farmington without destination charging, due to the long access road inside the park.

I know that Montrose would like to host a Supercharger Station (I know the guy who got the L2 EVSE installed there) but it seems rather close to Grand Junction. Gunnison might be better for US 50 over Monarch Pass: although a bit long at 126 miles, Gunnison to Grand Junction would be fairly easy. But Montrose is a crossroads and Montrose to Salida, at 129 miles plus Monarch Pass, is doable. Ridgway would open up Telluride and Lizard Head Pass, especially with Cortez on the other end. But my local town of Ridgway is a tiny place; some amenities and places to visit but no chain restaurants or stores or things like that. Ouray is also small but would be a very attractive place for a Supercharger Station: it is gorgeous with lots of places to visit and explore but it isn't a crossroads, as you say.

These are all designated scenic highways, as you know, and get a lot of tourist traffic in summer. But they seem a bit lower on the priority scale than other major routes elsewhere.
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:58 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
GRA wrote:I'd really like to see them in both Cortez (gateway to Mesa Verde, and a good distance from both Moab and Kayenta) and Durango, plus do something about U.S. 50 (Montrose & Gunnison plus Poncha Springs/Salida), and/or move the Montrose one down to Ridgway, although I'd think that would make GJT to Gunnison (127 miles + elevation) difficult in winter. Montrose - Durango strikes me as a bit far (107 miles) in winter given the passes, but you'd have a better handle on that than I do. I do think it would benefit from an SC in Silverton or maybe Ouray if Ridgway isn't available, but given the option I always prefer putting SCs at junctions, as that's generally the most convenient as well as the least expensive choice.
Montrose to Durango is actually pretty easy because the speeds between Ouray and Silverton are very low and lead to great range despite the huge elevation changes. I could easily do Farmington to Montrose in my S60, for example. But Durango is too near to Farmington to make a Supercharger Station worthwhile until they are really filling in secondary routes. I do like the idea of one at Cortez since Mesa Verde NP is difficult from Blanding or Farmington without destination charging, due to the long access road inside the park.

I was thinking the main benefit from Durango would be for people heading east on 160 to Alamosa. OTOH, they'll also eventually need SCs in Pagosa Springs and South Fork; the first is 104 miles from Cortez, the 2nd 149, but only 104 from Durango. All three will be needed eventually.

dgpcolorado wrote:I know that Montrose would like to host a Supercharger Station (I know the guy who got the L2 EVSE installed there) but it seems rather close to Grand Junction. Gunnison might be better for US 50 over Monarch Pass: although a bit long at 126 miles, Gunnison to Grand Junction would be fairly easy. But Montrose is a crossroads and Montrose to Salida, at 129 miles plus Monarch Pass, is doable. Ridgway would open up Telluride and Lizard Head Pass, especially with Cortez on the other end. But my local town of Ridgway is a tiny place; some amenities and places to visit but no chain restaurants or stores or things like that. Ouray is also small but would be a very attractive place for a Supercharger Station: it is gorgeous with lots of places to visit and explore but it isn't a crossroads, as you say.

The bolded section is my main reason for suggesting Ridgway. I prefer South Fork to Pagosa Springs for a similar reason, enabling Gunnison - South Fork via 149. OTOH, Pagosa Springs will be wanted for travel to/from Taos; at least they've got a permit for Santa Fe now, but Taos will definitely be needed too.

dgpcolorado wrote:These are all designated scenic highways, as you know, and get a lot of tourist traffic in summer. But they seem a bit lower on the priority scale than other major routes elsewhere.

Yes, and that really needs to change. EV tourism is a definite thing, and I was very disappointed that Tesla didn't take advantage of the NPS Centennial this year and put some extra effort into enabling SC access to major national parks/monuments as well as other major tourist destinations. As it was, only West Yellowstone (and the Pocatello/Idaho Falls connectors) were completed in time for the summer vacation season, with Jackson, Groveland and Fish Camp all completing well afterwards. Instead, they did U.S 95 between Reno and LVG, FWTW.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:17 pm

scottf200 wrote:
GRA wrote:
scottf200 wrote:Re: GRA: mainly the 2016 map retitled
I don't think so. There are considerably more dots on the 2017 than the planned 2016.
I created this from saved image. not perfect but a reasonable way to view it.
planned-2016-vs-planned-2017
Image

Sure there are a lot more dots, although the majority of them seem to be infill on existing routes rather than expansion; both are needed. Hopefully someone on TMC has the patience to count all of the new ones.


Haha. Well I was just pointing out it is considerably different than your "mainly the 2016 map" statement. Looks like there are at least another 120-150 additional dots. Filling in some diagonal routes as well as Model 3 or S60s. Just stare at a few of the W, S, lower midwest, E states to see several dots added to most states.

To be clear, my "mainly the 2016 map" statement referred to routes rather than SCs. At this time I believe they need to get the major interstate routes to initial completion, and only then start infilling for density while simultaneously putting a lot more effort into expanding new routes, especially the off-interstate, scenic/recreational ones.

As far as counting new dots, at least one person on TMC has done it each of the past years, so I have hopes - I certainly don't have the patience! But we should all know by now that Tesla is a lot better at putting new dots on year maps than completing the actual SCs, so however many new dots are on the map, everyone should apply their own personal Tesla B.S. multiplier to arrive at how many are likely to appear by the end of the year - mine is around 0.6 - 0.7.

Where the SCs are is just as important as the total numbers. While they probably will complete somewhere in the neighborhood of 70-80% of the total number of dots that appeared on the 2016 map, looking at their performance on major E-W routes as an example, they had forecast completion of I-10, 20, 30, 40, 44, 64, 80, 90, and 94 - they actually completed I-44 and I-90, or just over 22%. Major N-S interstate route completions were similarly underwhelming.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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