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abasile
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:14 pm

GRA wrote:OTOH, do we really want to inculcate the idea that the rescue is just a cellphone call away any time you're feeling a little uncomfortable? I have read credible accounts of people calling from the top of Half Dome to say that they were tired, and demanding that the rangers send a helicopter up to bring them back. I've also had conversations with ranger friends who relate similar if less ludicrous examples.

Yes, I've also heard of such accounts. Probably the solution here is to send these folks the bill for their rescues! Even if billed for only a fraction of the rescue costs, many would be deterred from frivolously calling for help.

GRA wrote:The Park Service's problem is that they were given a dual mission, with the two parts in conflict: "...to promote and regulate the use of the...national parks...which purpose is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations."

Yes, there certainly has to be a balance. Human enjoyment of wild places virtually always involves some level of degradation; even the existence of a narrow hiking trail has some impact. Ideally, we'd hope to achieve a high level of public "enjoyment" at the price of only modest degradation. Roughly speaking, we want to maximize the enjoyment:degradation ratio. Actively encouraging and accomodating EVs is, in general, a great way to improve that ratio compared to what we have today. Letting motorized vehicles run amok through the parks would hurt the ratio, of course.
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GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:58 pm

abasile wrote:GRA,
Likewise, it makes no sense to continue allowing gasoline-powered generators in developed campgrounds while deliberately making no provision at all for EV charging. That said, if the goal is to improve air quality in the parks, the first step would be to put additional restrictions on campfires, which appear to be far and away the largest source of air pollution in Yosemite.

Well, we're way OT, but one short bit more since I didn't really reply to this part before. I'm with you on banning generators in campgrounds, for noise as much as air pollution. And despite having backpacked, climbed and cross-country skied for not far short of 5 decades, I'm probably the world's worst fire-starter. As I'm usually on rock/snow above timberline and always use a stove for cooking, it hasn't been an issue. Anytime a fire would have been useful it wasn't an option.

Still, I understand the desire of many people to have one - it's probably humanity's oldest technology besides rocks and sticks.

BTW, IDK if you're interested, but much of the ideology of the proponents of various types of N.P. and other national recreation usage are described in this book, which probably played a large part in forming my own opinions way back when (or more likely, it just confirmed opinions that I already had but hadn't coherently expressed):

"Mountains Without Handrails: Reflections on the National Parks," by Joseph L. Sax, 1980.

https://www.amazon.com/Mountains-Withou ... 0472063243

Here's a good, critical review of the book (from 1982), to give you an idea whether you'd like to read it, and give some balance: http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/vie ... ntext=ealr

Having brought it up, I think I'll find a copy and re-read it, to see how/if my own opinions have changed in the last 35+ years. That's quite enough OT.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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abasile
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:04 pm

GRA wrote:I understand the desire of many people to have [a fire] - it's probably humanity's oldest technology besides rocks and sticks.

I also enjoy campfires from time to time. But not for hours and hours, smoldering with wet wood and lots of smoke!

Both campfires and livestock on trails are much more harmful than phones and (properly sited) EV charging infrastructure. However, we tend to think of them as "okay" in the parks because they aren't new technology.

GRA wrote:"Mountains Without Handrails: Reflections on the National Parks," by Joseph L. Sax, 1980.

Thanks for pointing that out, and for the OT discussion. I believe I saw that text in a park visitor center store somewhere!
2011 LEAF at 68K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 85K miles
LEAF battery: 10/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-27% vs. new)
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:32 pm

abasile wrote:
GRA wrote:I understand the desire of many people to have [a fire] - it's probably humanity's oldest technology besides rocks and sticks.

I also enjoy campfires from time to time. But not for hours and hours, smoldering with wet wood and lots of smoke!

Both campfires and livestock on trails are much more harmful than phones and (properly sited) EV charging infrastructure. However, we tend to think of them as "okay" in the parks because they aren't new technology.

Re livestock, the most recent Yosemite NPS usage survey for future backcountry planning included a section on how people felt about livestock. Anyone who's foot mobile hates them; I've spent far too many miles inhaling manure dust or smelling and stepping over/around piles of the fresh variety, and my first backpacking trip (when I was 11) used a burro for some gear, so I got to experience the joys of getting one of those to go when/where it didn't want to. As a result, I don't think of stock as something quaint. But for people who can't get into the backcountry under their own power, they're a necessity, for others who are lazy they're a convenience, for some part of their heritage/history/daily life, and of course the pack companies wield considerable influence as well. They are at least trying to limit them to certain trails/numbers in Yosemite, although how that will all shake out remains to be seen.

abasile wrote:
GRA wrote:"Mountains Without Handrails: Reflections on the National Parks," by Joseph L. Sax, 1980.

Thanks for pointing that out, and for the OT discussion. I believe I saw that text in a park visitor center store somewhere!

You're welcome, and I don't doubt you did - NPS sells it. BTW, I had included a link to a critical review (1982) of the book to give you an idea if you wanted to bother, but somehow that link became a direct link to amazon for the book itself (which I'd also included) - weird. So, 2nd try: http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1766&context=ealr

It goes to the correct location for me, at least now.
Last edited by GRA on Mon May 01, 2017 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Mon May 01, 2017 4:54 pm

End of April summary. 4 U.S. SCs opened last month, making 17 for the year and 357 total: Santa Fe, NM (4/13; I-25 & U.S. 84); El Paso, TX (4/22; I-10 & S.R. 78); Arlington, TX (4/22; I-30, S.R. 360); Monroe, WA (4/26; U.S. 2, S.R. 203 & 522). Milford, CT #3 is not complete and not shown as open yet on Tesla's SC webpage, but customer use on 9/28 & 9/30 reported on supercharge-info; I-95.

12 U.S. SCs are known to be under construction: Fremont #2 (dormant); Austin and Flatonia, TX; Little Rock, AR; Tupelo, MS; Bolingbrook, IL; Bristol, TN; Charleston, WV; Florida City, FL; Wilmington, NC; Victor, NY; Milford, CT (see above). Reports of construction at Traverse City, MI seems to have been premature, and it is currently in permit status.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Canadian SC opened last month, still 26 total.

No Canadian SCs are known to be under construction.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue May 02, 2017 5:18 am

Thanks for the report, Guy.

Your numbers refer to new locations only, right? Do we have a feel for how many new stalls were installed at existing locations? I have a feeling that the latter is more how Tesla hopes to grow the network in 2017.
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webeleafowners
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue May 02, 2017 7:31 am

If i read an earlier post correctly there are 26 superchargers in Canada. In comparison in BC alone there are 31 DC fast chargers with 11 more on the way this year for a total 42 in BC alone. (All in the kootenay corridor). They are still siting the Prince George Corridor and yellow head but another 7 or 8 expected there. I would think we will have north of 50 DCFC in the province by 2019/2020. My point is, is Tesla just letting the provinces sort out the infrastructure challenges? Nothing wrong with that but seems contrary to what they seem to do in other countries.
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abasile
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue May 02, 2017 11:08 am

webeleafowners wrote:If i read an earlier post correctly there are 26 superchargers in Canada. In comparison in BC alone there are 31 DC fast chargers with 11 more on the way this year for a total 42 in BC alone. (All in the kootenay corridor). They are still siting the Prince George Corridor and yellow head but another 7 or 8 expected there. I would think we will have north of 50 DCFC in the province by 2019/2020. My point is, is Tesla just letting the provinces sort out the infrastructure challenges? Nothing wrong with that but seems contrary to what they seem to do in other countries.

Comparing Superchargers vs. public DC chargers in Canada, the number of Superchargers might not seem quite as bad when considering that each Supercharger site has at least four charging stations, sometimes considerably more. Here in Southern California, we now have a fairly large number of DC/CHAdeMO sites spread all over the region. But I think a much greater volume of cars is served by the smaller number of Tesla Supercharger sites in SoCal. Even the 12 stall SC sites in SoCal (Rancho Cucuamonga comes to mind as one that's close to us) have high utilization rates. Tesla's focus on Supercharger reliability and redundancy is paying dividends.

That said, I don't know why Canada as a whole has, in proportion to its population, fewer Supercharger sites than the US. Perhaps there is proportionally less demand for Teslas in Canada, measured in terms of Model 3 reservation numbers. Even if that's true, though, BC, Ontario, and Quebec seem to have noteworthy EV demand. Or perhaps there just hasn't been enough focus on Canada, which if true ought to be corrected.

In addition to covering the most popular destinations in BC/ON/QC, my personal belief is that it would be worthwhile for Tesla to install SCs along the entire length of the Trans Canada Highway. This would send a powerful message to Canadians that Teslas are viable for long distance travel in their country without having to cross the border (crossing the US/Canadian border isn't necessarily as easy as it was when I was a kid). Although Canada's population is spread out, it's also pretty linear in nature. Plus, many Americans, my family included, enjoy road trips into Canada when we have enough vacation time. For now, at least we can use a CHAdeMO adapter with our Tesla...
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webeleafowners
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue May 02, 2017 1:03 pm

abasile wrote:
webeleafowners wrote:If i read an earlier post correctly there are 26 superchargers in Canada. In comparison in BC alone there are 31 DC fast chargers with 11 more on the way this year for a total 42 in BC alone. (All in the kootenay corridor). They are still siting the Prince George Corridor and yellow head but another 7 or 8 expected there. I would think we will have north of 50 DCFC in the province by 2019/2020. My point is, is Tesla just letting the provinces sort out the infrastructure challenges? Nothing wrong with that but seems contrary to what they seem to do in other countries.

Comparing Superchargers vs. public DC chargers in Canada, the number of Superchargers might not seem quite as bad when considering that each Supercharger site has at least four charging stations, sometimes considerably more. Here in Southern California, we now have a fairly large number of DC/CHAdeMO sites spread all over the region. But I think a much greater volume of cars is served by the smaller number of Tesla Supercharger sites in SoCal. Even the 12 stall SC sites in SoCal (Rancho Cucuamonga comes to mind as one that's close to us) have high utilization rates. Tesla's focus on Supercharger reliability and redundancy is paying dividends.

That said, I don't know why Canada as a whole has, in proportion to its population, fewer Supercharger sites than the US. Perhaps there is proportionally less demand for Teslas in Canada, measured in terms of Model 3 reservation numbers. Even if that's true, though, BC, Ontario, and Quebec seem to have noteworthy EV demand. Or perhaps there just hasn't been enough focus on Canada, which if true ought to be corrected.

In addition to covering the most popular destinations in BC/ON/QC, my personal belief is that it would be worthwhile for Tesla to install SCs along the entire length of the Trans Canada Highway. This would send a powerful message to Canadians that Teslas are viable for long distance travel in their country without having to cross the border (crossing the US/Canadian border isn't necessarily as easy as it was when I was a kid). Although Canada's population is spread out, it's also pretty linear in nature. Plus, many Americans, my family included, enjoy road trips into Canada when we have enough vacation time. For now, at least we can use a CHAdeMO adapter with our Tesla...


Yah I would think you are right. Any of the Chademos I have used are single units (combo chademo CCS) although I know there are doubles out there in BC. We both drive EV's but only one (the leaf) is DCFC capable. Having said that we don't use them a lot. This summer we hope to see the DCFC network thru the Kootenays done though as it would make a nice drive that right now is only possible through level 2. All of the Kootenay route units will be paired with dual level 2 units. Things have already got a lot better since we started with our first EV. I am kinda proud of my province for working towards a better charging network. I hope they keep it up and start including some of the secondary routes as well as these are the more fun tourist routes.
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue May 02, 2017 4:38 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:Thanks for the report, Guy.

Your numbers refer to new locations only, right? Do we have a feel for how many new stalls were installed at existing locations? I have a feeling that the latter is more how Tesla hopes to grow the network in 2017.

Yes, only new SC sites. Way back when I also listed the number of stalls per site, but it got to be too much hassle as the number of sites increased, and for most people it was irrelevant given the lack of crowding at the time. When a site does get upgraded with more stalls I try to mention it, but no guarantees as I'm not going to troll through every single site web page on Tesla's SC link to count them every month! If it isn't mentioned at supercharge.info or on one of the TMC SC topics that I follow, it's unlikely that I'll see it. Anyone who's concerned about having to wait will presumably check Tesla's webpage to count the stalls for themselves.

As to what Tesla's plans are, they've peppered the SC map with new 'opening soon' (formerly 'coming soon') sites in addition to saying they'll be adding stalls at existing sites. As Tesla has consistently demonstrated, they're much better at putting dots on maps than building the SCs that are supposed to be represented by those dots. We've hopefully all learned that 'opening soon' can mean anything from 'by the end of this month' to 'maybe by the end of this decade'.
Last edited by GRA on Wed May 17, 2017 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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