GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:34 pm

scottf200 wrote:
GRA wrote:Seemed to escape me? You've got to be kidding. Here's my most recent comment on that subject, back just two pages in this topic:
To say this claim seems unlikely is almost a British level of understatement, as they are about at the same level of (U.S.) completions as last year 5 (4 in 2016) for January, 2 (2 in 2016) for February, when they completed 92 for the year. They do have more under construction this year, 9 rather than 3, although in both those cases one of them is Fremont #2 which has been dormant. Added to that is all the money they're going to have to spend on getting the Model 3 into production plus ramping up the Gigafactory, and you've got to wonder just how they expect to pay for a tripling of SC completions this year compared to their best performance to date (102 in 2015), never mind how they'd be able to build that many.

They obviously need to considerably increase the number of SCs to handle the Model 3s, but I suspect 150 in the U.S. this year would be a considerable accomplishment.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&p=486820&hilit=To+say+this+claim+seems+unlikely+is+almost+a+British#p486820

Yes, I do need to give you some credit in that general regard.

My point was that you are continuing to compare the past to this year and you don't appreciate how things are VERY different now and why it could easily happen now because their motivations are WAY different than the past ... that you ALWAYS use as examples of what WILL happen. Hope that helps clarify. Thanks for your continued interest.

I compare the past to this year because I compare Tesla's past claims to their actual accomplishments, which have typically achieved no more than 60-70% success. I'd love to see them achieve something close to a 1:1 ratio between the two, but until they do so I remain a cynic, especially when the claims are so far beyond anything they've achieved to date. I'm sick and tired of hype.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

scottf200
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:22 pm

GRA wrote:The biggest issue I'm concerned about is that most people going to Glacier will drive the Going-to-the-Sun Highway, and many will do the round trip starting from either end and either coming back the same way or looping around via U.S. 2. For instance, the loop from Kalispell through St. Mary to East Glacier and back to Kalispell is 202 mountainous miles, and while speeds are low inside the park, rain, use of heater or A/C and winds are all possibilities. Throw in some degradation and it strikes me as an opportunity for a lot of worried drivers, absent chargers inside the park. Not everyone wants to stay in RV parks, even assuming there are vacancies in the high season.

Indeed you have a very valid point. I emailed the Tesla Supercharger email address about all this. Link: http://www.glacierparkinc.com/plan-your ... -sun-road/

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abasile
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:40 pm

I understand that part of the rationale for Superchargers in Shelby, MT is to connect Calgary and Edmonton with the US network to the south, via I-15. So that location makes sense regardless. I agree that SCs in West Glacier and Saint Mary would be helpful for park visitors, though.

Ultimately, all heavily-visited national/state/provincial parks could use "gateway" fast charging, as destination chargers and RV hookups are often in short supply. Not every desirable overnight destination has electricity! (Some of us like primitive campsites.) Tesla seems to be aware of this need.

The other thing is, not everyone has the same sentiments about technology in and near the wilderness. Many influential people believe that wifi and cellular signals should be kept to a minimum, and convincing them to support adding EV charging stations could be an uphill battle. So I think there will continue to be a need to have key services near our parks. (Personally, I'd rather have cellular/data service and EV charging wherever feasible inside the parks, at least to the extent that this can be accommodated without adding infrastructure in otherwise-undeveloped areas. If the price of being able to double the duration of a camping/hiking trip is carrying around an iPhone and/or a laptop, then I'm for it.)
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
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GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:59 pm

abasile wrote:I understand that part of the rationale for Superchargers in Shelby, MT is to connect Calgary and Edmonton with the US network to the south, via I-15. So that location makes sense regardless. I agree that SCs in West Glacier and Saint Mary would be helpful for park visitors, though.

Yes, Shelby is needed for that reason, and eventually SCs will be wanted all along U.S. 2 eastwards to I-29, once the demand is there.

abasile wrote:Ultimately, all heavily-visited national/state/provincial parks could use "gateway" fast charging, as destination chargers and RV hookups are often in short supply. Not every desirable overnight destination has electricity! (Some of us like primitive campsites.) Tesla seems to be aware of this need.

The other thing is, not everyone has the same sentiments about technology in and near the wilderness. Many influential people believe that wifi and cellular signals should be kept to a minimum, and convincing them to support adding EV charging stations could be an uphill battle. So I think there will continue to be a need to have key services near our parks. (Personally, I'd rather have cellular/data service and EV charging wherever feasible inside the parks, at least to the extent that this can be accommodated without adding infrastructure in otherwise-undeveloped areas. If the price of being able to double the duration of a camping/hiking trip is carrying around an iPhone and/or a laptop, then I'm for it.)

I've been having a bit of a re-think myself re Yosemite and the parks generally, and am coming down on the opposite side (I've always leaned that way generally, and had a very vivid mental image of tossing some idiot yakking on his cellphone off the top of a summit we were both on a couple of years back; fortunately I restrained myself. Anyway, after unofficially discussing my proposal to add charging with some people inside the park several months back, I was advised that it would be better to wait until the new Superintendent was officially appointed, and then with the new federal administration plus all the damage to park infrastructure this winter from storms, it was suggested to me that this year probably wasn't a good time to submit anything that would cost money.

However, with the recent announcement by BMW that they are working with the Park Service to add charging on routes to and in some cases inside parks, prioritized to those with nearby metro areas with lots of PEVs (like the Bay Area and L.A.), I'm thinking of re-directing my efforts towards them, and specifically trying to get them to add QCs in gateway communities as Tesla has done around Yosemite and a few other places (Moab, Jackson, W. Yellowstone). I'm virtually certain that NPS would prefer this to providing additional charging inside, and I've come around til I'm leaning to the same point of view. Taking this approach will mean that the reduction of emissions from PHEVs inside the parks will be less than would otherwise be possible, but with longer-ranged BEVs becoming increasingly available over the next couple of years it may well make the most sense over the long-term, while adhering more closely to the Park Service's ideology (always assuming that the current President doesn't fire everyone and appoint a bunch of mining/timber lobbyists in their place).
Last edited by GRA on Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:01 pm

scottf200 wrote:
GRA wrote:The biggest issue I'm concerned about is that most people going to Glacier will drive the Going-to-the-Sun Highway, and many will do the round trip starting from either end and either coming back the same way or looping around via U.S. 2. For instance, the loop from Kalispell through St. Mary to East Glacier and back to Kalispell is 202 mountainous miles, and while speeds are low inside the park, rain, use of heater or A/C and winds are all possibilities. Throw in some degradation and it strikes me as an opportunity for a lot of worried drivers, absent chargers inside the park. Not everyone wants to stay in RV parks, even assuming there are vacancies in the high season.

Indeed you have a very valid point. I emailed the Tesla Supercharger email address about all this.

Good, the more of us squeaky wheels there are, the better.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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abasile
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:10 am

GRA, I also would have found it jarring to find someone loudly yakking on a phone at the top of a summit. I'll bet that individual does the same thing in restaurants and other places, in violation of commonly-accepted social norms. However, it remains odd to me that, while backpackers and day hikers can and do benefit from all sorts of modern technology that makes it easier to spend time in the wilderness, somehow our modern communication technology is considered taboo. It seems to me that people ought to be free to make their own choices, within reason.

Likewise, it makes no sense to continue allowing gasoline-powered generators in developed campgrounds while deliberately making no provision at all for EV charging. That said, if the goal is to improve air quality in the parks, the first step would be to put additional restrictions on campfires, which appear to be far and away the largest source of air pollution in Yosemite.

While there is a growing need for "gateway" fast charging, the best way to charge EVs is at destinations wherever possible. This is easier on the grid, it's more cost efficient, and it's more convenient. So I hope that the NPS and others will come around. For my part, when visiting parks, I will continue submitting comment cards in favor of EV charging.
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:24 am

abasile wrote:However, it remains odd to me that, while backpackers and day hikers can and do benefit from all sorts of modern technology that makes it easier to spend time in the wilderness, somehow our modern communication technology is considered taboo. It seems to me that people ought to be free to make their own choices, within reason.


I don't know about others, but when I go backpacking, it is precisely to escape from our overly connected "cyber" world and reconnect with the natural world. If technology allows me to travel lighter while enjoying higher quality food and hiking in greater comfort, all of those things enhance the experience. Electronic communications detract from them. When I am backpacking, my phone remains in airplane mode for use effectively as a camera / emergency lifeline only.

My point is not that others cannot talk on their phones at the top of the mountain but rather that, from my perspective (and probably Guy's from what I surmise), there is nothing "odd" about cell phones being taboo.
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:32 am

More on-topic...

The Supercharger in Queensbury NY is a bit of a gateway to the Adirondacks for NYC residents. It's great that they have put one there. It would be nice to have one or two in the park itself as well. Lake Placid and Saranac Lake come to mind as potentially good host communities. That would provide for those who are staying in the park itself, and not just the touristy Lake George area. As it stands, it is possible to travel from NYC to the High Peaks for a backpacking trip, via Queensbury. But that doesn't leave a lot of margin. And leaves no option for those of us not traveling from the south.

The park is a very popular destination during the summer. It is not longer just New York's "playground of the rich and famous", but a destination for Joe Public (like me!) and I suspect a lot of potential future Tesla customers.
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abasile
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:55 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:I don't know about others, but when I go backpacking, it is precisely to escape from our overly connected "cyber" world and reconnect with the natural world. If technology allows me to travel lighter while enjoying higher quality food and hiking in greater comfort, all of those things enhance the experience. Electronic communications detract from them. When I am backpacking, my phone remains in airplane mode for use effectively as a camera / emergency lifeline only.

I understand, and I'm not generally eager to talk/text on my phone while enjoying natural wonders.

However, no thanks to NPS efforts to keep cell signals from "leaking" into the backcountry, one can forget about that "emergency lifeline".

Enabling people to communicate efficiently isn't without benefits. Last summer in Yosemite's high country, we were trying to meet up with two different families without the benefit of reliable cell service. One of those families eventually found us, late, by walking around the campground. The other family left a note on the main message board, but the opportunity to meet had passed by the time we found the note. We would have loved to have gone hiking together, but couldn't connect.

More on topic, I'd also support Superchargers at major, developed destinations deep inside some very large parks where lots of driving is sort of required. Furnace Creek inside Death Valley, Grant Village inside Yellowstone, and others could make sense, given sufficient electrical infrastructure or enough solar+batteries.

While I'm no fan of the current administration and their disregard for the environment, perhaps some good could come from loosening up some of the "purist" / Luddite thinking that currently seems to prevail in the parks. If Tesla can take advantage of the current politics and get some Superchargers and destination chargers installed in our national parks, then they should go for it! :mrgreen:
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GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:33 pm

abasile wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:I don't know about others, but when I go backpacking, it is precisely to escape from our overly connected "cyber" world and reconnect with the natural world. If technology allows me to travel lighter while enjoying higher quality food and hiking in greater comfort, all of those things enhance the experience. Electronic communications detract from them. When I am backpacking, my phone remains in airplane mode for use effectively as a camera / emergency lifeline only.

I understand, and I'm not generally eager to talk/text on my phone while enjoying natural wonders.

However, no thanks to NPS efforts to keep cell signals from "leaking" into the backcountry, one can forget about that "emergency lifeline".

Enabling people to communicate efficiently isn't without benefits. Last summer in Yosemite's high country, we were trying to meet up with two different families without the benefit of reliable cell service. One of those families eventually found us, late, by walking around the campground. The other family left a note on the main message board, but the opportunity to meet had passed by the time we found the note. We would have loved to have gone hiking together, but couldn't connect.

Sure, there are costs in efficiency through lack of communications over distances. For me, that's a price well worth paying when I'm in the backcountry. I want to disconnect from the whole babble of electronic communications. Not having real-time comms just puts the responsibility for my own safety (and anyone I'm with) on our own heads, and who has more motivation?

The basic rule for groups was to always tell someone reliable where you were going and when you'd return, route, where you parked, license etc. so that rescuers could be alerted if you didn't show up as planned. In the meantime, you were expected to be equipped and trained to deal with likely emergency situations (I realize this is an ideal, and there are lots of unprepared people in the backcountry). But as far as taking ultimate responsibility, I'm reminded of the world-class climber who not only didn't tell anyone where he was going, he didn't tell them he was going, period - his friends would only realize they hadn't seen or heard from him after a couple of weeks went by. If he got into trouble it would almost certainly would be in a situation where trying to rescue him would put others in danger, and he was unwilling to put anyone else at risk. Or take the guy who had to amputate his own arm when it was trapped under a rock - certainly if he'd had cell service that might not have been necessary; OTOH, do we really want to inculcate the idea that the rescue is just a cellphone call away any time you're feeling a little uncomfortable? I have read credible accounts of people calling from the top of Half Dome to say that they were tired, and demanding that the rangers send a helicopter up to bring them back. I've also had conversations with ranger friends who relate similar if less ludicrous examples.

abasile wrote:More on topic, I'd also support Superchargers at major, developed destinations deep inside some very large parks where lots of driving is sort of required. Furnace Creek inside Death Valley, Grant Village inside Yellowstone, and others could make sense, given sufficient electrical infrastructure or enough solar+batteries.
Yes, such locations make practical sense. See below.

abasile wrote:While I'm no fan of the current administration and their disregard for the environment, perhaps some good could come from loosening up some of the "purist" / Luddite thinking that currently seems to prevail in the parks. If Tesla can take advantage of the current politics and get some Superchargers and destination chargers installed in our national parks, then they should go for it! :mrgreen:

I have a leg in both camps, which is why I tend to go back and forth. In my gut I'm pretty purist (hardly a Luddite, given the amount of money I've spent over the decades to buy high-quality, modern gear), but in my head I'm a pragmatist. I think what worries the purists is the camel's nose under the tent, which leads to reasoning such as "if cell phones are okay, then why not build refreshment stands, bars and restaurants? And why shouldn't we allow people to use snowmobiles and dirt bikes/ATVs to get around?

The Park Service's problem is that they were given a dual mission, with the two parts in conflict: "...to promote and regulate the use of the...national parks...which purpose is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations." Where that balance falls has changed towards keeping out as much of modern life and not providing tourist 'entertainment', so no more fire fall off Glacier Point, no more spectator bleachers and floodlights at the open garbage dump to watch bears paw through it looking for food, removal of gas stations and other amenities of civilization.

Finding the right balance is difficult, and varies both in different parks and in areas within a specific park, and I have to remind myself that I benefit from certain aspects of civilization (such as the machine grooming/tracking of Glacier Pt. Road in winter (up to the early '80s, it was left to us to make our own tracks), bridges over creeks and rivers, and trail construction and maintenance. Anyway, long digression, but I do try to keep in mind that there are other points of view, and act accordingly. I draw the line at motorized off-road transport, though.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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