Durandal
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:01 pm

SageBrush wrote:I have never understood this argument since these people waiting in line do not then work less, but I agree that most people value their off-work time at more than $1 an hour.


It depends on what your job is, honestly. For me, I value my free time at the same rate I value my work time. Any time I am at work is time I'm not doing something that I would rather be doing. And I certainly don't care to stand around waiting in line. I order online virtually anything I can, because that's time I don't have to drive to the store, stand in line, etc, etc. It takes me 30 seconds to order something once I know what I want, and I don't go to the store until I know what I want in most cases. All of my research has been done prior. As a Leaf owner, I suspect you probably knew more about the Leaf than the salesman that was selling it to you. I know I did.
Pulled the trigger on going EV on 10/2016 with a 2012 Leaf, and a Tesla Model 3 reservation expected to receive in June 2018.

GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:47 pm

End of December, and end of 2016 summary. 15 U.S. SCs opened this month, making 92 for the year* and 340 total. Memphis, TN (12/1, U.S. 72 near I-240, and poorly placed for both I-40/I-55 travel); Ogallala and Gothenburg, NE (12/2, I-80); Tarrytown, NY (12/2, I-87/287); Santa Ana, CA (12/6, I-5 infill); Twentynine Palms, CA (12/9, S.R. 62, access to Joshua Tree); Groveland and Fish Camp, CA (12/16, S.R. 120 and S.R. 41, Yosemite gateways); Mt. Gilead, OH 12/17, I-71); Texarkana, TX (12/21, I-30/49); Aberdeen, WA (12/22, U.S. 101); Clearwater, MN (12/22, I-94); Midland, TX (12/24, I-10); Loveland, CO (12/29, I-25 infill/near U.S. 34 access to Rocky Mountain N.P.); Brush, CO (12/31, I-76).

11 U.S. SCs were known to be under construction: Fremont #2, CA (in stasis); Las Vegas #2, NV; Lima, MT; Junction, Ozona, and Van Horn, TX; Lincoln and Grand Island, NE; Kuttawa, KY; Naples, FL; Scranton (Moosic), PA.

No Canadian SCs completed in December. There are 24 Canadian SCs total.

2 Canadian SCs were known to be under construction: Merritt, BC, and Oakville, ON.

*This is the first year that the number of U.S. SCs opening was less than the previous year's total.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:06 pm

Re waiting time value, numerous studies have shown that on average people value their commute time at about half their hourly rate (or the equivalent, if salaried), although there's wide variation. Just search "commute time value" and a bunch of links to studies and articles will come up.

I've never understood why people are willing to sit at Costco or any other mobbed gas station to save a few cents/gallon. I can understand if the savings are a lot greater, but in general you won't find two gas stations in close proximity with wildly different pricing. In my case, I normally fill up about 1.6 miles away instead of at my nearest station 1.5 blocks away. Neither requires more than a couple of minutes wait (at the most - I can usually just drive right up to the pump), but the one I use is currently $0.36/gallon cheaper. That more than makes up for the gas used in driving there and back even if I make a special trip (I usually wait until I'm passing by on the way to somewhere else), as I'm always taking 10 to 15 gallons.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Location: Colorado

Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:04 pm

Durandal wrote:
SageBrush wrote:I have never understood this argument since these people waiting in line do not then work less, but I agree that most people value their off-work time at more than $1 an hour.


It depends on what your job is, honestly.
I am probably atypical, but I work as much as I want to and the connection to money is not strong. This leads to choices during off-work that are also not money motivated per se, although I am quite frugal and often spend time doing things that save me money. In any case though, I've yet to meet a person who works less because they saved some money in some other way, so the temptation to evaluate the Costco goers by their hourly wage does not make sense to me.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

Zythryn
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:49 am

SageBrush wrote:
Durandal wrote:
SageBrush wrote:I have never understood this argument since these people waiting in line do not then work less, but I agree that most people value their off-work time at more than $1 an hour.


It depends on what your job is, honestly.
I am probably atypical, but I work as much as I want to and the connection to money is not strong. This leads to choices during off-work that are also not money motivated per se, although I am quite frugal and often spend time doing things that save me money. In any case though, I've yet to meet a person who works less because they saved some money in some other way, so the temptation to evaluate the Costco goers by their hourly wage does not make sense to me.


Time is not an easy thing to put a price to?
How would you go about placing a monetary figure to an hour of your time?

To a child, time is generally has a much smaller value.
To someone with hours to live, it is probably quite valuable.

Quality is also an issue. To someone enjoying themselves, time may be the last thing on their mind. To someone waiting in a long line in an uncomfortable situation, time can't pass fast enough and is very much at the top of their mind.

If you have a better way to put a value on the average person's time, go for it, I'd love a more valid comparison.
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SageBrush
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:11 am

Zythryn wrote:How would you go about placing a monetary figure to an hour of your time?

If you have a better way to put a value on the average person's time, go for it, I'd love a more valid comparison.

My father used to say that 'work' is something you do not want to do. So while I do not share whatever motivation(s) the Costco fuel pump visitors have, they are as valid as any other. I would also suggest keeping in mind that most people have an income ceiling, so they might be willing to 'work' for a low hourly savings rate for the marginal improvement in their finances.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

Zythryn
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:40 am

SageBrush wrote:
Zythryn wrote:How would you go about placing a monetary figure to an hour of your time?

If you have a better way to put a value on the average person's time, go for it, I'd love a more valid comparison.

My father used to say that 'work' is something you do not want to do. So while I do not share whatever motivation(s) the Costco fuel pump visitors have, they are as valid as any other. I would also suggest keeping in mind that most people have an income ceiling, so they might be willing to 'work' for a low hourly savings rate for the marginal improvement in their finances.


Agreed, however that doesn't answer the question.
What dollar value should be attributed to an hour of someone's time?

The eaIest comparison, because it is something most people are familiar with, is their hourly wage/rate.
This is especially true for people who bill on an hourly basis.
The logic goes like this: "I bill X dollars for my time, therefore my time is worth X".

You obviously don't agree with this method, so I am wondering how you would put a value on an hour of time?
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SageBrush
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:56 am

Zythryn wrote:You obviously don't agree with this method, so I am wondering how you would put a value on an hour of time?
Sorry, I thought I was being clear. I do not think it is possible to put a monetary value on time, because the activity's "value" is influenced by desire to participate and whatever other motivations are in play. You may as well try to monetize enjoyment or revenge. I have chatted with people before who e.g. pay $75 - $100 for a car engine oil change and explain the behavior as worthwhile based on their 'work' compensation. It is very rarely true. What is really going on is that these people are either incompetent, afraid, or find the chore so distasteful that they are willing to pay exorbitant prices to have someone else perform the job. The monetization is just a rationalization.

I am paid about $150 an hour to go to the work-place, but most of my time is being on-call doing whatever I want so from one POV my hourly 'work' rate is around $1000 an hour. Clearly I should rationally only 'work' and play, but I actually spend a lot of time doing what most people would think of as chores. It sorts out this way because I like (well, more like value) chores and more time at home and want to continue enjoying going to work.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

Zythryn
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:02 am

SageBrush wrote:
Zythryn wrote:You obviously don't agree with this method, so I am wondering how you would put a value on an hour of time?
Sorry, I thought I was being clear. I do not think it is possible to put a monetary value on time, because the activity's "value" is influenced by desire to participate and whatever other motivations are in play. You may as well try to monetize enjoyment or revenge. I have chatted with people before who e.g. pay $75 - $100 for a car engine oil change and explain the behavior as worthwhile based on their 'work' compensation. It is very rarely true. What is really going on is that these people are either incompetent, afraid, or find the chore so distasteful that they are willing to pay exorbitant prices to have someone else perform the job. The monetization is just a rationalization.

I am paid about $150 an hour to go to the work-place, but most of my time is being on-call doing whatever I want so from one POV my hourly 'work' rate is around $1000 an hour. Clearly I should rationally only 'work' and play, but I actually spend a lot of time doing what most people would think of as chores. It sorts out this way because I like (well, more like value) chores and more time at home and want to continue enjoying going to work.


And I completely understand that point of view.
In our culture though, many people, for many decades have equated time with money.
Terms such as "how much is your time worth to you" and "time is money" are everywhere.

So if someone does choose to make that comparison, in their mind, the most direct comparison is hourly wages/rate.
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dgpcolorado
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:32 am

Having retired young long ago I work at volunteer jobs, for which I don't get paid. I guess that makes my time worth zero, right?

Actually my volunteer work has other compensation: for the structured jobs that involve working with others, the social aspects are important, since otherwise I live alone as a recluse. For the individual jobs that hardly anybody knows about, it is the satisfaction of doing something that needs to be done — somebody has to do it, why not me? Pretty hard to convert those sorts of things to dollars and cents per hour. Although it doesn't pay well, I enjoy my volunteer work more than I did my career as a molecular biologist.

One thing overlooked about wait time, whether in a Costco gas line or at a Supercharger Station, is what one uses the wait time for. I often listen to audio books while waiting, driving, taking long walks, doing chores (so long as they aren't noisy, as with a chainsaw) and so forth. In my view the wait time isn't really "wasted". YMMV.

SanDisk Clip Sport + Audible.com = enjoying wait time... IMHO
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