GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:01 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
GRA wrote:My point throughout, and the point you have consistently (until now, at least) refused to acknowledge, is that I do understand their advantages and disadvantages, have evaluated my car needs, have compared the capabilities that BEVs currently provide to those needs, and have determined based on practical and financial grounds that they are a poor fit for people like me at this time.


So what do you drive? Because its all about need... so lets start with your need?

I drive a 2003 Subaru Forester 2.5XS (bought new) which replaced my '88 Subaru Turbo 4WD Wagon (also bought new) when that was stolen. I have no brand loyalty, it's just when I've winnowed down the possible choices I started with (IIRR, 15 or so in 2003, but only 3 in 1988), specific Subarus have come closest to meeting my requirements the last two times I bought cars. Which isn't all that surprising, as I fit their 'active outdoors' customer demographic to a T, and owing to their rallye heritage they also meet my performance/driving dynamic requirements.

As to need, I need a car (now) primarily for road trips, as inexpensive a possible to buy (every 15 years or so the price of the car that best meets my needs seems to increase about $10k, so my next car should go out the door for no more than $35k), which has to be reliable for the long term (at least 15 years), inexpensive to maintain, achieve high safety ratings (IIHS/NHTSA) with as many of the latest safety features as are available without jacking the price too much or adding too many unneeded and unwanted gimmicks (like HVAC control touch screens and Falcon Wing doors etc.), good ergonomics and intuitive controls that allow me to keep my eyes and brain on the road, adequate acceleration to safely pass on two-lane mountain roads at density altitudes up to 12,000 ft. or so, a range of at least 4 hours (my current Subie does 5 or 6) at freeway speeds under all but the worst conditions, plus a reserve sufficient to get me to the next refueling/recharging station (but not less than 30 miles) under the same conditions and more if I stretch it, the best gas mileage possible while meeting other requirements, and a spare tire (full size preferred) and jack to cope with flats miles from the nearest paved road, and highly preferred that it stores in its own dedicated space and doesn't take up cargo volume. For an ICE I also insist on a manual transmission, but for a BEV/PHEV/FCEV I'd want several levels of regen from zero to lots, preferably on paddles, and a multi-speed automatic rather than a CVT is also preferred.

Among major wants are good driving dynamics (especially handling and steering feel), AWD so I don''t have to put chains on in the winter when I go on ski trips except when I really need them (owing to California's method of imposing chain restrictions, this is a major convenience issue), the flexible utility over the long term to meet my evolving needs provided by either a small CUV, wagon or squared-off hatch (e.g. VW Golf, Subaru Impreza) body style so that I can carry a large variety of people and/or outdoor equipment in/on it, including carrying a single bike inside or be able to sleep in it stretched out flat with the rear seats folded down, plus can carry roof racks for bikes and kayaks (and hang gliders should I get into that).
Last edited by GRA on Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:51 pm

GRA wrote:
WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:My point throughout, and the point you have consistently (until now, at least) refused to acknowledge, is that I do understand their advantages and disadvantages, have evaluated my car needs, have compared the capabilities that BEVs currently provide to those needs, and have determined based on practical and financial grounds that they are a poor fit for people like me at this time.


And you make a point of consistently pointing the disadvantages of BEVs.

I have a modest suggestion for you.

I make a point of pointing out where specific technologies work well and where they don't. Feel free to make any suggestions you like, just as I do.


IMO the value of that depends on the relative differences vs nit picking. In this case it seems pretty nit picky at best.
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GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:56 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
GRA wrote:
WetEV wrote:
And you make a point of consistently pointing the disadvantages of BEVs.

I have a modest suggestion for you.

I make a point of pointing out where specific technologies work well and where they don't. Feel free to make any suggestions you like, just as I do.


IMO the value of that depends on the relative differences vs nit picking. In this case it seems pretty nit picky at best.

You are entitled to your opinion just as much as I'm entitled to mine. I'm a fan of the widest possible range of views being expressed, so that every person can decide for themselves which ones they find most persuasive.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:10 pm

It's like saying I don't like one flavor of ice cream so the entire brand is flawed. I see no value in it. If you were pointing out the HUGE issues with DC fast charging it would make more sense comparatively and in perspective. What's your opinion on EVGO advertising 50Kw charging and providing as little as 30kw with no good reason yet charging per minute? Seems like a scam since you don't get what you pay for. Another topic for another thread I suppose.......
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GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:21 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:It's like saying I don't like one flavor of ice cream so the entire brand is flawed. I see no value in it. If you were pointing out the HUGE issues with DC fast charging it would make more sense comparatively and in perspective. What's your opinion on EVGO advertising 50Kw charging and providing as little as 30kw with no good reason yet charging per minute? Seems like a scam since you don't get what you pay for. Another topic for another thread I suppose.......

You ought to check what I've written about Blink. I've had my share of comments re eVgo as well, especially before they revised their pricing. I devote more attention to Tesla's SC network because they've promised the most, done the most and also fallen short the most. The tag line in my original sig read "When nurturing a new technology, under-promise and over-deliver rather than the opposite". Tesla's continual violation of that policy, which I regard as vital as well as basic business ethics (at least it was for me designing and selling AE) is why I pound on them so much. If they'd stop promising the moon and instead put out conservative schedules that they routinely achieve and usually exceed, they'd get zero criticism and lots of praise from me on that score. Instead, we get idiocies like I-94 which may well be put back another year and promised for 2019, just as it was previously promised for 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018.

IM oft-stated opinion, until they've got a contract with the property owner, permits granted and construction contract awarded with project start date known, i.e. the project is shovel-ready, they simply shouldn't be listing any SC as 'Coming soon' or putting them on the SC map.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:02 pm

I think coming soon is a general city location and not a specific site in some cases so any delays or changes are clearly not predictable. On the flip side people want to know where stations are being targeting and in the works. On the flip side there are some SC stations not listed on the map I know are being developed which indicates those are likely replacements for the other locations nearby. In relative terms I think they have done well based on the many obstacles to build high-power stations in single locations. In fact, it's quite remarkable. As a report card for delivering as promised based on other auto makers and network promises it is an A in comparison to a D- or F. Relative terms I can't see any reason to complain.
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GRA
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:23 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:I think coming soon is a general city location and not a specific site in some cases so any delays or changes are clearly not predictable. On the flip side people want to know where stations are being targeting and in the works. On the flip side there are some SC stations not listed on the map I know are being developed which indicates those are likely replacements for the other locations nearby. In relative terms I think they have done well based on the many obstacles to build high-power stations in single locations. In fact, it's quite remarkable. As a report card for delivering as promised based on other auto makers and network promises it is an A in comparison to a D- or F. Relative terms I can't see any reason to complain.

We disagree, as I regard routine completion shortfalls of 30% or more year after year as unacceptable for any business, and destructive of its credibility, I'd give them at best a C-minus; the only thing they have going for them is that everybody else, as you state, rates a D- or F (I expect EA will be an exception to this).

If people want to know where Tesla is contemplating putting stations some day that's fine, just don't list them as 'Coming soon' when that's not the case. I suggest using 'Proposed' or 'Anticipated' for such stations - that way everyone knows that nothing is solid, there may be major changes and no time frame for completion is forecast. This is easy to do, and any business that wasn't depending on hype would do it. I've also suggested that Tesla should always have some stealth sites underway, so that the occasional unavoidable SC completion shortfalls due to acts of god type events can be balanced out by these unannounced stations. But making sure that an SC site has all its ducks in a row (permits/contracts/start date) before it changes to 'Coming soon' status will eliminate virtually all criticisms of Tesla re its SC network forecasts.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:58 pm

GRA wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:
GRA wrote:I make a point of pointing out where specific technologies work well and where they don't. Feel free to make any suggestions you like, just as I do.


IMO the value of that depends on the relative differences vs nit picking. In this case it seems pretty nit picky at best.

You are entitled to your opinion just as much as I'm entitled to mine. I'm a fan of the widest possible range of views being expressed, so that every person can decide for themselves which ones they find most persuasive.


Please don't dominate the rap jack, if you got nothing new to say.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

GRA
Posts: 8898
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:28 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:
IMO the value of that depends on the relative differences vs nit picking. In this case it seems pretty nit picky at best.

You are entitled to your opinion just as much as I'm entitled to mine. I'm a fan of the widest possible range of views being expressed, so that every person can decide for themselves which ones they find most persuasive.


Please don't dominate the rap jack, if you got nothing new to say.

How many of us who've been here for a while have had anything new to say? Seems like you and I keep repeating the same points over and over. For example, in another topic, you just wrote re the rate of uptake of EVs
Every journey happens a step at a time

a point you've made repeatedly in argument with me and maybe others. When responding to other people's posts I state my views and the reasons for them, just as you do.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:50 am

GRA average post per day, mostly FUD at electric cars or promotion of hydrogen: 3.50 posts per day
WETEV average post per day, widely ranging across topics, answering people's questions and more: 0.94 posts per day

Your only interest in electric cars is finding an alternative to any car car: ie bicycles for everyone. "New Urbanism".
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

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