GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:23 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:I think coming soon is a general city location and not a specific site in some cases so any delays or changes are clearly not predictable. On the flip side people want to know where stations are being targeting and in the works. On the flip side there are some SC stations not listed on the map I know are being developed which indicates those are likely replacements for the other locations nearby. In relative terms I think they have done well based on the many obstacles to build high-power stations in single locations. In fact, it's quite remarkable. As a report card for delivering as promised based on other auto makers and network promises it is an A in comparison to a D- or F. Relative terms I can't see any reason to complain.

We disagree, as I regard routine completion shortfalls of 30% or more year after year as unacceptable for any business, and destructive of its credibility, I'd give them at best a C-minus; the only thing they have going for them is that everybody else, as you state, rates a D- or F (I expect EA will be an exception to this).

If people want to know where Tesla is contemplating putting stations some day that's fine, just don't list them as 'Coming soon' when that's not the case. I suggest using 'Proposed' or 'Anticipated' for such stations - that way everyone knows that nothing is solid, there may be major changes and no time frame for completion is forecast. This is easy to do, and any business that wasn't depending on hype would do it. I've also suggested that Tesla should always have some stealth sites underway, so that the occasional unavoidable SC completion shortfalls due to acts of god type events can be balanced out by these unannounced stations. But making sure that an SC site has all its ducks in a row (permits/contracts/start date) before it changes to 'Coming soon' status will eliminate virtually all criticisms of Tesla re its SC network forecasts.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:58 pm

GRA wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:
GRA wrote:I make a point of pointing out where specific technologies work well and where they don't. Feel free to make any suggestions you like, just as I do.


IMO the value of that depends on the relative differences vs nit picking. In this case it seems pretty nit picky at best.

You are entitled to your opinion just as much as I'm entitled to mine. I'm a fan of the widest possible range of views being expressed, so that every person can decide for themselves which ones they find most persuasive.


Please don't dominate the rap jack, if you got nothing new to say.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

GRA
Posts: 9510
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:28 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:
IMO the value of that depends on the relative differences vs nit picking. In this case it seems pretty nit picky at best.

You are entitled to your opinion just as much as I'm entitled to mine. I'm a fan of the widest possible range of views being expressed, so that every person can decide for themselves which ones they find most persuasive.


Please don't dominate the rap jack, if you got nothing new to say.

How many of us who've been here for a while have had anything new to say? Seems like you and I keep repeating the same points over and over. For example, in another topic, you just wrote re the rate of uptake of EVs
Every journey happens a step at a time

a point you've made repeatedly in argument with me and maybe others. When responding to other people's posts I state my views and the reasons for them, just as you do.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:50 am

GRA average post per day, mostly FUD at electric cars or promotion of hydrogen: 3.50 posts per day
WETEV average post per day, widely ranging across topics, answering people's questions and more: 0.94 posts per day

Your only interest in electric cars is finding an alternative to any car car: ie bicycles for everyone. "New Urbanism".
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

GRA
Posts: 9510
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:47 pm

WetEV wrote:GRA average post per day, mostly FUD at electric cars or promotion of hydrogen: 3.50 posts per day
WETEV average post per day, widely ranging across topics, answering people's questions and more: 0.94 posts per day

Your only interest in electric cars is finding an alternative to any car car: ie bicycles for everyone. "New Urbanism".

Uh, no, as perusal of my posts will show, I post on a wide range of topics: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author=gra

I don't try and force the choices I've made on anyone; that doesn't work. I will suggest options that I think will work for someone, especially if I think they may not have considered them, but everyone will have their own priorities and make their own choices. Answering people's questions? I do lots of that as well, although less so than when this forum was new and there were so many people with no experience of deep-cycle battery-based systems and their foibles. Here's an example of my approach, in that and my subsequent posts in that topic:
GRA wrote:
IssacZachary wrote:

I still keep throwing around the idea of a new Prime though. I still see some for around $25,000, which with the tax credits could put it at $15,000. If I can sell the Beetle for around $7,000 too I would just about break even in the end!

If you can swing that I think it would be an excellent way to go. An Ionic PHEV lists even less, and looks more normal. Worth comparing, and you might want to look at the Niro PHEV as well, which should be priced in the same range as the Prime.
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=24950&start=70#p531084

I do post a fair amount about FCEVs/H2, but it's tech I'm interested in and only a few others here are, so my posts on the subject tend to outnumber everyone else's. Many if not most of my posts in those areas are replies to others like yourself who have negative views of the two tech's chances for commercial success (I consider it difficult but not impossible, and worth pursuing for now), and are merely repetitive arguments between us.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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paulgipe
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:14 am

A Canadian Take on Tesla's Supercharger Network

Note: Glen Estill is a good friend and colleague in Ontario, Canada. He was a successful entrepreneur when he changed careers and installed one of the first commercial wind turbines in the province--the first of many to come. Estill is also a savvy observer of the provincial political scene and many an Ontario bureaucrat has felt the sting of his wit. He's been a longtime advocate of the local ownership of renewables and has invested accordingly. Estill leads by example and that's why he was an early Model 3 reservation holder. He powers his Tesla with solar PV in the "Great White North" of Ontario's Bruce Peninsula.


I've owned my model 3 (extended range version) for 3 months now, and driven 4,800 km (~3,000 miles). I have been to a Tesla Supercharger only 3 times, picking up about 200 km (~125 miles) of range at a cost of ~$8. The Tesla superchargers are for the most part relatively well located, and easy to get to, and seem to be located in shopping malls. So far, for the few number of extra kilometers I have purchased, it has taken less than 20 minutes in total to charge. The model 3 has been charging at Superchargers at up to 650 km/hour (400 miles/hour)! I haven't even had time to get a coffee! I haven't yet been on any major road trips, but that usually only happens once or twice a year. Tesla charges about 24 cents/kWh to charge--roughly double their cost of electricity.

What has Tesla figured out that the others haven't?

1. Charging stations will have great difficulty finding a revenue model that works. With an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine), 100% of "charging" must be done at a gas station. With electric cars, 95% of charging is done at home. There may be an exception for city dwellers who do street parking, or for condo's, although it would likely be far more cost effective to ramp up availability of Level 2 chargers in cities, rather than send EV owners to Superchargers.

2. Tesla has 1,332 Superchargers in North America. They have sold 200,000 cars. The model X and S include a certain amount of free charging, whereas there is a fee to charge the Model 3. The estimated cost of building a charging station is $275,000 (max), so they have spent up to $366 million building their charging network so far. This works out to an investment of $1,830 per car sold. The stations likely run at breakeven for Model 3's. Tesla's network, though, has been built for the future, and with shipments ramping up, it is reasonable to say the investment per car shipped will drop dramatically in the future, even as the network expands. If Tesla ships 250,000 cars per year for two years, the cost per charging station could drop to ~$500per car sold.

3. Superchargers are not a profit maker. But they are a market enabler. They enable a consumer to buy a pure electric car with confidence that it will fulfill all their needs, including road trips. A Tesla EV is not just an "around town car". Tesla has figured out that Superchargers are a marketing expense.

4. GM spent $3.1 billion on advertising in the US in 2014, and shipped about 6 million cars in North America. That works out to $500 per car. (Superbowl commercials don't come cheap.) Tesla spends virtually nothing on advertising.

5. As the number of Tesla's that have a fee for charging increases, the revenue model for the Supercharger will improve. Someday, it may be a small money maker. Based on local survey's of the busyness of Tesla Superchargers, the number of vehicles using them can be increased several fold with little expansion required. There is also scope to increase the price per kWh, as the current price drastically undercuts the cost of gasoline. And drivers would not be upset, because they do so little charging on the road.

6. GM, Nissan, BMW and others seem to be waiting for the market to develop the high speed charging network. It won't happen. The revenue model is simply not there, nor will it be for a long time. The network will be incomplete, subject to out of order stations (no revenue to support maintenance), and hard to find, as there will be multiple vendors.

The Supercharger network is a major and unrecognized strategic advantage that Tesla has over other EV vendors. And it is a smart marketing expense.
Bakersfield, California
2017 Bolt LT with DCFC, leased 11/09/17
2015 Nissan S with QC, leased, returned
2013 Chevy Volt Premium, used 10/3/16, sold
L2; ClipperCreek HCS-40; Jesla; JDapter Stub
http://www.wind-works.org

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jlv
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:27 am

paulgipe wrote:The Supercharger network is a major and unrecognized strategic advantage that Tesla has over other EV vendors. And it is a smart marketing expense.

Nice write-up. My only minor complaint is the use of the word unrecognized above.
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:11 am

jlv wrote:
paulgipe wrote:The Supercharger network is a major and unrecognized strategic advantage that Tesla has over other EV vendors. And it is a smart marketing expense.

Nice write-up. My only minor complaint is the use of the word unrecognized above.



It is recognized by owners and that's about it in practical terms. The general non-EV pubic has little awareness of it and the advantages.

scottf200
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:19 pm

I just came back recently from a 5,500+ mile road trip (wedding, Glacier National Park, several family home visits, friend visits, etc) in our Tesla Model X. I did I80 on the way out and I70 on the way back. (I90 is from the previous year)

I drove with AutoPilot for 95% of the trip. It was fantastic for the highway driving. Drove with hand(s) lightly on the wheel with much less cognitive work and allowed me to enjoy the scenery while staying refreshed/alert.

I used Tesla SuperChargers for all (~95% of miles) but northern MT (RV plug at a campground, siblings house welding plug, and siblings cabins electric dryer plug).

Image
** This map includes the more northern route I've taken in the past in my previous X (top I90, mid I80, lower I70). Lot of options with the Tesla SuperCharger network. It also includes the counter-clockwise roadtrip I did in early July 2018 with an old friend.
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paulgipe
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:28 am

scottf200 wrote:I just came back recently from a 5,500+ mile road trip (wedding, Glacier National Park, several family home visits, friend visits, etc) in our Tesla Model X. I did I80 on the way out and I70 on the way back. (I90 is from the previous year)

I drove with AutoPilot for 95% of the trip. It was fantastic for the highway driving. Drove with hand(s) lightly on the wheel with much less cognitive work and allowed me to enjoy the scenery while staying refreshed/alert.

I used Tesla SuperChargers for all (~95% of miles) but northern MT (RV plug at a campground, siblings house welding plug, and siblings cabins electric dryer plug).

Image
** This map includes the more northern route I've taken in the past in my previous X (top I90, mid I80, lower I70). Lot of options with the Tesla SuperCharger network. It also includes the counter-clockwise roadtrip I did in early July 2018 with an old friend.


This is what we all want to do with our Bolts, our Leafs, and even our VWs. We're a long ways from there though and that's why Glen Estill's comments hit home.

Paul
Bakersfield, California
2017 Bolt LT with DCFC, leased 11/09/17
2015 Nissan S with QC, leased, returned
2013 Chevy Volt Premium, used 10/3/16, sold
L2; ClipperCreek HCS-40; Jesla; JDapter Stub
http://www.wind-works.org

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