edatoakrun
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:25 am

Interview with Evgo execs indicates they almost get the concept of public DC:

...In order for a network to be successful, it needs to serve the customer where and when they need it. We have found that what drivers want is ease of access and something to do while they charge.

...We have a number of important factors we consider in charger placement, everything from safety to ease of access to hours of availability. The placement of a Freedom Station is generally within feet, not miles, of a major thoroughfare or freeway...


https://chargedevs.com/features/nrg-evg ... interview/

In practice, however many of their DCs in the San Francisco Bay area are adoptees, poorly located at Nissan dealerships.

Other of their DCs are placed at places where parking time frequently exceeds the required charging time, such as shopping centers, inviting abuse by those who leave their BEVs unattended for long periods.

And the pricing structure means charges per kWh for occasional users are quite high, especially if you only need a quickie charge of a few minutes, to pick up a few kWh.
no condition is permanent

cwerdna
Gold Member
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Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:34 am

edatoakrun wrote:Interview with Evgo execs indicates they almost get the concept of public DC:
...
And the pricing structure means charges per kWh for occasional users are quite high, especially if you only need a quickie charge of a few minutes, to pick up a few kWh.

Indeed, the prices on the no monthly fee plan at http://www.nrgevgo.com/san-francisco-bay-area/ are nutty for the above scenario. $4.95 just to start a DC FC session?

At $4/gal gas (not that high right now) and if my Prius were only getting 40 mpg, I could go almost 50 miles on that $4.95. Not to mention that I could have an "adventure" if the spot's blocked, DC FC is broken and I have to wait around and pay 20 cents/minute...

All that will be moot for me Monday, 7/27. I will no longer have a Leaf w/CHAdeMO inlet. Oh, but I was never an NRG eVgo customer in the first place. Don't even have an account w/them and I've never paid a cent for public charging.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

edatoakrun
Posts: 4748
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:44 am

Do you think this updated announcement (I think the route map is new) amounts to just an extension of the present DC infrastructure east of Sacramento, or maybe something more?

I hope that something was lost in translation in the release below, and that the new DC stations will actually provide opportunities for large numbers of DC Capable BEVs to charge simultaneously (providing reliability) that they will be located where BEV drivers want to use other facilities and that the guidance will allow those seeking DC charging to easily filter out the masses of slow AC sites and unreliable or unavailable DC charge sites.

If you click the link and look at the central California routes mapped, ~only the highway 50 and 80 routes from Sacramento to Tahoe are still lacking DC charge sites (such as they are) so let's hope the new stations proposed on those and the eastern routes are not just more of the same.

NEDO asks Nissan and Kanematsu to analyze EV use in California


...The NEDO project will seek to encourage the use of electric vehicles for longer distances and inter-city driving by installing and maintaining multiple quick chargers along specific inter-city routes. Nissan and Kanematsu will collect and analyze data on EV driving patterns in California, and create a suitable model to help promote more extensive use of electric vehicles in the state and beyond.

With the help of the California state government, and U.S. utility company NRG eVgo*, Nissan and Kanematsu plan to place additional quick chargers at suitable locations along inter-city freeways in Northern California, and use project-specific information services to guide EV users to the most efficient chargers along the route. The companies will then assess whether the combined hardware/software model can successfully encourage users to drive longer distances in EVs.
.
Nissan's role in the project will be to install and operate the quick chargers, and analyze any changes in EV use that result


http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/20 ... e.html?rss
no condition is permanent

EVforRobert
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:51 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Sep 2015
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:22 am

edatoakrun wrote:Do you think this updated announcement (I think the route map is new) amounts to just an extension of the present DC infrastructure east of Sacramento, or maybe something more?

The map shows new coverage to Monterey as well.
California is trying to leverage existing EVs so they may be driven father. This will displace ICE vehicles and improve emissions.

They say, "The companies will then assess whether the combined hardware/software model can successfully encourage users to drive longer distances in EVs."

The only limitation I can see is that most lease their EVs and have mileage penalties in their agreement.
2015 SV LED + Quickcharge Mfg 10/14
61.34 AHr 500 mi. 57.05 AHr 12075 mi. 12/16
2016 S 30kWh Mfg 9/16 82.34 AHr 4 miles

powersurge
Posts: 766
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
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Location: Long Island, NY

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:21 am

I'm not really sure why so many are arguing a moot point about needing an infrastructure to "quick charge" to go from "Reno to Tahoe", or the "problem of limited range". I have a 2015 with a 6.6 and quick charger. I have the car 11 months, with 11k miles on it. 1) This car is not designed for interstate driving. 2) I understand that frequent use of the level 3 chargers is not good for the battery. I will never use my car for long driving, but have the capacity for the future if they (the level 3 chargers) become popular AND FREE on highways. I WILL NOT PAY 12 DOLLARS TO CHARGE MY CAR WITH NRG! 3) I am surprised that I haven't see more talk about the "CHARGEPOINT" national network of FREE level 2 charging which is FREE FREE FREE (Chargepoint.com). All you need is the computer or an app on your phone to find a near charging station (in my area, long island, ny, they are about 5 miles away (max) from any point you may be on the island. I am so happy with my car, I cannot put it into words... I have a level 2 charger (Schneider Electric) at home which charges 80% in 2.5 hours. I work near a Chargepoint charger (level 2), have a trailer hitch and bike rack on my car. I charge FREE every day and have a 7 minute bike ride to work, and pay ZERO traveling expenses with my 300 miles weekly driving! I can with confidence guess that all of the naysayers on this forum who complain of "limited range" (a) DO NOT own an electric car and are just flapping their gums, OR (B) are shills or plants from other places with an alternate agenda that are trying to put down the development of electric cars. I would love to hear from REAL Leaf owners about their "range anxiety", because my experience with this technology has been perfect.

XeonPony
Posts: 315
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Leaf Number: 413826
Location: Yorkton, sask, Canada

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:09 pm

powersurge wrote:I'm not really sure why so many are arguing a moot point about needing an infrastructure to "quick charge" to go from "Reno to Tahoe", or the "problem of limited range". I have a 2015 with a 6.6 and quick charger. I have the car 11 months, with 11k miles on it. 1) This car is not designed for interstate driving. 2) I understand that frequent use of the level 3 chargers is not good for the battery. I will never use my car for long driving, but have the capacity for the future if they (the level 3 chargers) become popular AND FREE on highways. I WILL NOT PAY 12 DOLLARS TO CHARGE MY CAR WITH NRG! 3) I am surprised that I haven't see more talk about the "CHARGEPOINT" national network of FREE level 2 charging which is FREE FREE FREE (Chargepoint.com). All you need is the computer or an app on your phone to find a near charging station (in my area, long island, ny, they are about 5 miles away (max) from any point you may be on the island. I am so happy with my car, I cannot put it into words... I have a level 2 charger (Schneider Electric) at home which charges 80% in 2.5 hours. I work near a Chargepoint charger (level 2), have a trailer hitch and bike rack on my car. I charge FREE every day and have a 7 minute bike ride to work, and pay ZERO traveling expenses with my 300 miles weekly driving! I can with confidence guess that all of the naysayers on this forum who complain of "limited range" (a) DO NOT own an electric car and are just flapping their gums, OR (B) are shills or plants from other places with an alternate agenda that are trying to put down the development of electric cars. I would love to hear from REAL Leaf owners about their "range anxiety", because my experience with this technology has been perfect.


Never had range anxiety, then again I knew how batteries worked. No difference between the car and a rc car or cell phone battery. AH / load = run time, run time * by speed = range.

I do 120 to 140Km a day in mine, and not once have I ever ran out!
2013 SV Leaf, Level 2 charger, so far all works great! 130Km daily, 100% charge at night on 240 then trickle charge for 8H durring the day on 120v.

Level 2 charge starts at 130am environmental starts at 6am to 25c for a toasty warm defrosted car!

GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:09 pm

EVforRobert wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:Do you think this updated announcement (I think the route map is new) amounts to just an extension of the present DC infrastructure east of Sacramento, or maybe something more?

The map shows new coverage to Monterey as well.
California is trying to leverage existing EVs so they may be driven father. This will displace ICE vehicles and improve emissions.

They say, "The companies will then assess whether the combined hardware/software model can successfully encourage users to drive longer distances in EVs."

The only limitation I can see is that most lease their EVs and have mileage penalties in their agreement.

eVgo already installed QCs in Gilroy and Salinas, and there's a (poorly located) Blink QC in Monterey, so really, as Ed mentions there's "nothing to see here", except east of Sac. With those in place, even gen 1 BEVs will be able to reach Tahoe from Sacramento.

They'll need a lot more sites and QCs per site once the 2nd gen. affordable BEVs arrive, because those will be reasonably practical for shorter road trips (<=1 enroute QC each way) from the Bay Area.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

EVforRobert
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:51 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Sep 2015
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:36 pm

GRA wrote:
EVforRobert wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:Do you think this updated announcement (I think the route map is new) amounts to just an extension of the present DC infrastructure east of Sacramento, or maybe something more?

The map shows new coverage to Monterey as well.
California is trying to leverage existing EVs so they may be driven father. This will displace ICE vehicles and improve emissions.

They say, "The companies will then assess whether the combined hardware/software model can successfully encourage users to drive longer distances in EVs."

The only limitation I can see is that most lease their EVs and have mileage penalties in their agreement.

eVgo already installed QCs in Gilroy and Salinas, and there's a (poorly located) Blink QC in Monterey, so really, as Ed mentions there's "nothing to see here", except east of Sac. With those in place, even gen 1 BEVs will be able to reach Tahoe from Sacramento.

They'll need a lot more sites and QCs per site once the 2nd gen. affordable BEVs arrive, because those will be reasonably practical for shorter road trips (<=1 enroute QC each way) from the Bay Area.


OK, so they put one QC in Gilroy and another in Salinas. I hardly call that covering the trip to Monterey. If you absolutely have to get there, you will need about half a dozen QC's, you know, like a gas station has.

You also need a social way to make people move their vehicle when they are done. Imagine what would happen if someone parked their car at a gas pump for an hour like they do at QC's! Or had their family pick them up in a gas car and take them home?
2015 SV LED + Quickcharge Mfg 10/14
61.34 AHr 500 mi. 57.05 AHr 12075 mi. 12/16
2016 S 30kWh Mfg 9/16 82.34 AHr 4 miles

GRA
Posts: 7558
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:42 pm

EVforRobert wrote:
GRA wrote:
EVforRobert wrote:<snip>
The map shows new coverage to Monterey as well.
California is trying to leverage existing EVs so they may be driven father. This will displace ICE vehicles and improve emissions.

They say, "The companies will then assess whether the combined hardware/software model can successfully encourage users to drive longer distances in EVs."

The only limitation I can see is that most lease their EVs and have mileage penalties in their agreement.

eVgo already installed QCs in Gilroy and Salinas, and there's a (poorly located) Blink QC in Monterey, so really, as Ed mentions there's "nothing to see here", except east of Sac. With those in place, even gen 1 BEVs will be able to reach Tahoe from Sacramento.

They'll need a lot more sites and QCs per site once the 2nd gen. affordable BEVs arrive, because those will be reasonably practical for shorter road trips (<=1 enroute QC each way) from the Bay Area.

OK, so they put one QC in Gilroy and another in Salinas. I hardly call that covering the trip to Monterey. If you absolutely have to get there, you will need about half a dozen QC's, you know, like a gas station has.

You also need a social way to make people move their vehicle when they are done. Imagine what would happen if someone parked their car at a gas pump for an hour like they do at QC's! Or had their family pick them up in a gas car and take them home?

Yes, more QCs per site would be nice, although at least the Gilroy one has two (dual-standard) QCs, and Salinas has 1 CHAdeMO + 1 CHAdeMO/CCS. Considering it took almost 5 years to get Gilroy despite constant requests for it, and not much less for Salinas, it's a huge improvement. There are also lots of QCs in the South Bay, so getting to Gilroy is easy, or you can skip it and make Salinas. And there are also dual QCs in Santa Cruz and Watsonville, so you also have those routes as an option. By next year there should be affordable BEVs that can make it non-stop one-way with no trouble (a 30kWh LEAF can probably do it if you live on/south of 92), so the critical need will be for more L2s in Monterey/Carmel/Pacific Grove, rather than more QCs en route.

As for getting people to move, the easiest way is to charge them a higher rate for time once the charge rate has fallen below a certain amount or stopped. Blink is already implementing this in some areas.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

edatoakrun
Posts: 4748
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:36 am

Nissan's comments RE public infrastructure are common sense.

What you want to bet that most of $2 billion will instead be wasted on Hydrogen pumps and slow AC sites?


Nissan: $2B in VW diesel settlement for EV infrastructure could be a boon for all (except hydrogen)

...Nissan sent its own letter to the DOJ that said the automaker wants to "serve as an ally" so that the money is used, "in a way that is beneficial for the entire industry." Nissan said, "We believe that this funding could be instrumental in supporting a continued 'Infrastructure for All' approach that benefits all automotive OEMs and importantly, increases the pace of EV adoption." [Note: these quotes come from Nissan, which shared them with AutoblogGreen in a discussion about the contents of the letter, but are not necessarily directly from the letter itself.]

Nissan's point comes from its history in EV infrastructure investment. It told the DOJ that is has invested millions in open standard fast charging in the US, "and has deployed more than half of the 50kW dual CHAdeMO and CCS equipment available in the market today." Remember, Nissan Leafs cannot use the CCS plugs, so the automaker is not just full of talk when it comes to making investments that can help grow the EV pie, rather than just one company. Nissan did say, though, that the money should not be used for any hydrogen stations.

Here's what Nissan told the DOJ about how the money should be used:

Funding should be allocated to projects that are led, organized and managed at a national level to avoid a patchwork of initiatives driven by
individual states or local entities that are not holistic and/or coordinated.

Funding that supports Fast Charging must include multi-standard/open-standard equipment (including CHAdeMO).

Public DC Fast Charging should be prioritized over other efforts, and funding should be allocated towards areas of the ZEV industry that
suffer the largest market failures due to limited short-term ROI leading to a lack of private-sector investment.

Funding should address the need for a National High-Speed Fast Charging Network along interstates

All networked equipment funded under the ZEV Investment Commitment should support the Open Charge Point Protocol (OPCC) to allow choice between network providers, and it should allow for open credit card payment methods (EMV and mobile payments) without requiring drivers to sign-up for proprietary network memberships...

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/10/25/niss ... structure/
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