desiv
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:32 am

edatoakrun wrote:With all due respect, I just don't think Ghohn (or anyone at Nissan NA, apparently) comprehends the present and future experiences of LEAF drivers with DC charging in the USA, and the I for one, am losing my patience.

Actually, your frustration seems to mirror what Ghosn is saying. There is an issue with Infrastructure that is holding back sales. So I think he (they) does understand.

edatoakrun wrote:After over four years of USA BEV sales, why has Nissan still not approached a food or beverage chain and offered to promote their mutual profitability, by adding the attraction of DC charge stations (that BEV drivers can rely on, to have multiple DC charge points functional and available, 7/24) at some of the more heavily traveled BEV inter-city routes?


Do we know that Nissan hasn't done that? What we know is that "chargers at a large chain" hasn't happened yet, but I don't know that we know that Nissan hasn't talked to anyone, you know? ;-)

And it's a big investment if you're talking a large chain. A few thousand bucks or so from each Tesla sold goes to help build their supercharger network. For Nissan to do the same (or similar), we're talking an increase in cost or cut in their profits.
Does it make business sense at this time?
I think that's a valid question.. With the cost being thousands per DC charge unit and wanting multiple charge units per location, a large deploy would be a large amount of money. And that doesn't count maintenance and electricity for the units..

That being said, if it allows the sale of many more cars, Nissan would generate more money as a result..

There's also the issue of "non-Nissan" cars. Should Nissan subsidize something that will help other people sell cars?
Maybe several car companies can get together (HA.. sorry, made myself laugh there) on this to even out the costs?

It's an interesting situation..

desiv
2012 SL - Silver

edatoakrun
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:35 am

desiv wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:...After over four years of USA BEV sales, why has Nissan still not approached a food or beverage chain and offered to promote their mutual profitability, by adding the attraction of DC charge stations (that BEV drivers can rely on, to have multiple DC charge points functional and available, 7/24) at some of the more heavily traveled BEV inter-city routes?

...it's a big investment if you're talking a large chain. A few thousand bucks or so from each Tesla sold goes to help build their supercharger network. For Nissan to do the same (or similar), we're talking an increase in cost or cut in their profits...

I am certainly not suggesting Nissan emulate Tesla, whose "free" DC model is, IMO, unsound.

Nor am a suggesting Nissan subsidize a large numbers of DC charge stations at this time.

My point is that scattering more single DC chargers around is a waste of money (for whoever is subsidizing them) in many regions, where the principle problem with public DC is not in the number of locations, but that the individual chargers are unreliable by design, due to the possibility of prior use, or breakdown.

In my prior example, the effect adding more unreliable DC chargers to the Sacramento-Bay area corridor, would only be to give BEV drivers more opportunities to be disappointed.

I have little doubt that ~10 years from now there will be functional and economically self-supporting DC charge stations along many highways in the USA.

You will know the DC is reliable, because it is a requirement of the proprietor's business model, that there will be a charger available and working to dispense fuel to any vehicle, which gas station operators learned ~ a century ago.

And almost certainly (such is the case at most gasoline fuel stations located on intercity routes today) the primary profit source will not come from fuel sales, but by selling other product (food and drink) at the same location.

The problem is, there are not enough BEVs on the road yet, to support investment in public DC stations.

So, I am suggesting Nissan, which has the largest stake in making public DC work, take the initiative to establish reliable DC stations not nationwide but only in those few locations where they will get the most use, where the subsidy cost is lowest, and where the interval until Self-sufficiency is shortest.
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mjblazin
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:46 am

If fast charging has a long term detrimental effect on the batteries, why would we want a nationwide push? Is Nissan ready to say "Quick charge all you want"? I understood the answer was no.

Maybe it is the strong California emphasis of current users and desire to make road trips. To me the real market for EVs is two car or more households, which we have millions in TX. Everybody in those households has cheap used car that you likely do not trust leaving city limits and then your good car. EVs can easily fill that cheap used car role and be a money saver, not a cash hog in gas and maintenance. That kind of market does not need quick charge. It needs lots of L2 in metro areas so your spouse with the cheap car will never have to worry about not getting home.

Before Nissan starts moving off on replicating Tesla's publicity stunt, it hopefully will ensure the investment meets the demand that will drive huge increases in sales.
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desiv
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:24 pm

mjblazin wrote:If fast charging has a long term detrimental effect on the batteries, why would we want a nationwide push? Is Nissan ready to say "Quick charge all you want"? I understood the answer was no.

Well, Nissan might not be saying it specifically, but it's becoming a general belief over time as more information comes in that it isn't a major issue.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/17/dc-f ... -expected/

Tesla with their network isn't worried about long term damage.
VW/BMW are partnering to add more fast chargers..

I don't think too many people are worried about that anymore..

desiv
2012 SL - Silver

chuhouse2003
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Wed May 20, 2015 9:11 pm

http://www.chademo.com/
I am not sure how accurate the number is. Japan 3087 Europe 1661 USA 934 Others 55. We are way behind Japan on CHAdeMO charging stations. I really wish we speed up building the DC quick charging stations.
Last edited by chuhouse2003 on Fri May 29, 2015 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

edatoakrun
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Tue May 26, 2015 11:31 am

Nice to see Nissan and BMW can play together so well...

Elsewhere.

Nissan, BMW Partner to Build EV Charging Network in S. Africa

in Electric Car News / by Editorial Staff / on May 26, 2015 at 1:00 am /

Nissan-BMW-South-AfricaTwo of the most innovative vehicle manufacturers have joined forces to advance electric vehicle and plug-in hybrid vehicle adoption in South Africa.

Nissan South Africa (NSA) and BMW Group (BMW SA) signed a Memorandum of Understanding to jointly plan and build a national grid of EV and PHEV vehicle charging stations for use by both Nissan and BMW vehicles.

“Our introduction of the 100% electric Nissan LEAF in 2013 was part of Nissan’s global drive to advance sustainable mobility and to grow the market for zero-emission vehicles. With this in mind we believe our partnership with BMW SA is a sound investment to create a future-proof automobile industry,” says Mike Whitfield, Managing Director of Nissan South Africa.

Mr Tim Abbott, Managing Director of BMW South Africa says industry wide cooperation is the key to the future success of electric vehicles. “We have successfully launched the BMW i3 and BMW i8. A key imperative of our strategy is to ensure that the necessary infrastructure is rolled out to help increase consumer confidence in the viability of electric vehicles. We therefore believe that in order for the introduction and expansion of electric vehicles as well as plug-in hybrid electric vehicles to be successful in this market, we need to work together. Our partnership with Nissan is the first step towards that.”

The agreement will see BMW SA and NSA roll out DC fast-charging stations that are equipped with both the Combined Charging System 2 (CCS2) used by BMW’s electric and plug-in hybrid models and the CHAdeMO plug standards used by 100% electric Nissan LEAF...


http://electriccarsreport.com/2015/05/n ... -s-africa/
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chuhouse2003
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:07 pm

Don't know how it happened but Japan just put 2000 Chademo quick charge in 1 month according to http://www.chademo.com/. I wish our infrastructure is that good too.

speedski97
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:46 pm

The problem I see in California is that there is no plan. There are grants give and charging stations just put out there with no plan. In Los Angles there are so many fast chargers. Few that that I want to spend 30 Minutes at. They are put in in dealer’s parking, or lots in the middle of nowhere, and Some are as close together as two miles.
If I want to go from LA to the San Francisco bay area. The two highest density EV areas in the world. I have to plan the trip with a notebook of info. Like flying an airplane. Then hope that the chargers are working. The Nissan dc fast charger if it is hot out and you need a full charge. Charge for 10 minutes rest 10 minutes or it will over heat, if the air filters are old on the charger it will over heat. If you are traveling there is no love at Nissan dealers at all.
Oregon with DC chargers spaced every 50 miles. Much smarter. Maybe EGO will fill in some of the holes. Maybe people will step up like Dave did in 29 palms Ca, who built a solar powered 50kwh dc fast charger for all of us to use. It will be fun to watch.

JasonA
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:55 am

This is the biggest problem! Those Nissan units (aka Sumitomo) are a very bad design. Fans always running, sucking in dirt 24/7, filters always clogging. Almost every single one is down at a dealer or independent place here in SoCal and overheats. PlugShare is blowing up with comments all over the map right now.

Nissan needs to get off their ass and figure this out if larger pack Leafs are going to be coming out because if you can't charge a degraded 11/12y Leaf....

You're sure as hell not going to be charging a new 16+MY 30kwH Leaf in the heat :lol:
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edatoakrun
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:03 am

I wish Fastned luck, but IMO, this model would not fly in the USA, where fast food and fast fuel are so closely co-marketed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnV6gneAAaA

Notice how the customers in this video are just standing around while their BEVs charge?

Is this really how you want to spend your time, while your BEV is charging?

Almost all highway service stations in the USA attract customers by providing the same four essential products, while charging fees on only two of them, to sustain the business model.

Food/drinks and Fuel are the two main revenue sources, with the margins on food and drinks usually higher than those on gas/diesel sales.

The other two services, restrooms and the parking space required to use all of the first three, are free to the consumer, the costs for which are subsidized by charges on food/drink and fuel sales.

Fastned gets a lot right here, in its understanding of what a BEV needs, with its stations located on highway routes with multiple fast chargers.

And maybe Fastned plans to eventually extend the brand by also supplying the needs of the drivers and passengers, while the BEVs charge.

IMO, whoever is the first to make a profit from supplying the needs of long-distance BEV drivers in the USA, certainly will do so.
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