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TomT
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:36 pm

I'm sorry, but to me this is simply trying to use the Leaf for something for which it was not designed.

If you plan to do such things regularly, the Leaf is the wrong car to buy.
If you need to do this once in a while, either borrow or rent an ICE car.

I know other people will have other ideas, but that is my take on it.

edatoakrun wrote:Can Bay area LEAF owners conveniently drive to Reno/Tahoe?
Can SoCal owners recharge on the the way to Las Vegas?
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

edatoakrun
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:49 pm

mogur wrote:I'm sorry, but to me this is simply trying to use the Leaf for something for which it was not designed.

If you plan to do such things regularly, the Leaf is the wrong car to buy.
If you need to do this once in a while, either borrow or rent an ICE car.

I know other people will have other ideas, but that is my take on it.

edatoakrun wrote:Can Bay area LEAF owners conveniently drive to Reno/Tahoe?
Can SoCal owners recharge on the the way to Las Vegas?


Exactly what is the LEAF's "fast charge" option designed for, then?

As More and more EV's hit the road, with improved battery design and range capabilities, the 'beg, borrow, or rent" ICE alternative, will be increasingly unnecessary.

But only IF and WHEN a fast-charge highway network is established.
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EVDRIVER
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:15 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
mogur wrote:I'm sorry, but to me this is simply trying to use the Leaf for something for which it was not designed.

If you plan to do such things regularly, the Leaf is the wrong car to buy.
If you need to do this once in a while, either borrow or rent an ICE car.

I know other people will have other ideas, but that is my take on it.

edatoakrun wrote:Can Bay area LEAF owners conveniently drive to Reno/Tahoe?
Can SoCal owners recharge on the the way to Las Vegas?


Exactly what is the LEAF's "fast charge" option designed for, then?

As More and more EV's hit the road, with improved battery design and range capabilities, the 'beg, borrow, or rent" ICE alternative, will be increasingly unnecessary.

But only IF and WHEN a fast-charge highway network is established.



Or even a charger like the one on Tesla, Mini E. 16 kw plus, that goes a long way without a special outboard charger.

smkettner
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:21 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:You are overanalyzing it, it was a cost cutting issue and bad marketing decision pure and simple. I'm betting the first intent was 6.6kw as there was written and stated info early on outlining 4 hour full charges on L2.

Cost cut for Nissan combined with a cost increase with no benefit to the consumer :evil:
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AndyH
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:17 am

edatoakrun wrote:"L3 is being worked in a number of areas - and there are already L3 chargers in operation."

How many in the USA?

With respect, edatoakrun, did you catch the point that the TEPCO/CHAdeMO DC chargers were only recently UL approved for use in the USA?

How much of your money - right now - go grab your check book - how much of YOUR money do you want to tie-up with three-phase wiring from the Bay to Reno? You'll need permitting, a concrete pad, parking, and wires run from a pole to the pad. How many are you willing to finance?

By the way - it's not NOTHING to do with Nissan and EVERYTHING to do with conditions here in the US:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/12/30/report-u-s-to-conduct-tests-of-chademo-chargers/
but the U.S. has been reluctant to apply this single open standard to govern the quick-charge stations that either already are, or will soon be, installed here.

http://www.cars21.com/content/articles/46920110105.php
In a first large-scale deployment of fast chargers using the CHAdeMO protocol outside Japan, the U.S. government will use 310 fast chargers in the context of an electric vehicle project with driving tests to be held in Arizona, California, Texas, Tennessee, Oregon and Washington State next year at a cost of about $230 million (~ €173.6 million).

While I can feel your enthusiasm for the electric future, and I agree completely, it's really important that we have REALISTIC expectations in these early days. And for Heaven's sake - Nissan has put a LOT of their money on the line here - I don't expect them to do a single thing more than they've already done.

They've done more than their part. Now it's our turn.

Here - breathe into this bag, write two letters, and check back in the morning. ;)
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=239

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:58 am

edatoakrun wrote:I do not understand Nissan USA's apparent reluctance to contribute to the development of the public fast charge infrastructure.



so go to your state legislators and MAKE IT HAPPEN!!

stop whining about what is not being done for you and go do it yourself!!

besides, i think you will be surprised at what Nissan has done to encourage a network of charging stations, but its not up to them to do it.

http://www.plugincenter.net/2011/01/12/ ... ashington/

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07 ... c-highway/
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edatoakrun
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:54 am

"whining?"

"complaining?"

Well, maybe I erred in attempting to coin a humorous title to this thread, and maybe some should take the time to read my comments more carefully.

The "Suggestion for Nissan" I have made, is that certain aspects of EV development may be over-subsidized by both Nissan and government programs, such as early vehicle sales and home L2 installations, and too little consideration and neccessary subsidies have been given to the development of the fast charge network.

Nissan will lose a lot of money on every LEAF sale in the US for the next few years, and the governmental subsidies each early buyer receives are very expensive to federal (and some State) taxpayers. I believe that, in order for EV's to be profitable for Nissan (and other manufactures), and beneficial to the Nation as a whole, they will need to conveniently and rapidly rechargeable. And the only major fault in The LEAF roll-out, IMO, is the lack of opportunities, both present and in the advanced planning stage, to use the L3 option.

Eventually, fast charging must be a profitable market. It will not be until a sufficient number of EV's are on the road, just as LEAF sales will not be profitable until sales number in the hundreds of thousands-at least. Nissan has made the strategic decision to absorb current vehicle production losses as it's long range profit strategy. Waiting for other entities to provide the missing piece of the LEAF, the L3 chargers, may prove to be a strategic blunder. If Nissan would only select a number of dealers in critical locations for L3 installations, for example, I think future LEAF sales prospects would be greatly improved.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:29 am

my "whining" comment was not directed at you or anyone else on this board. we are all whining because EVs should have happened decades ago and free market forces were not allowed to offer this to us. PERIOD!!

so we should all be whining like 4 year olds because we were screwed and like 4 year olds, we had someone else tell us what was good for us and that someone made "our" decision for us by removing choices "they" felt were inappropriate.

now my response to this thread is really off topic. i need to create a new thread called "why i am grateful to Nissan and the reason they should not do more than they are doing because they have already done 10 times more than anyone else has"


now, that is true today and in a few years, that will not be true as we have other car companies playing catch up now.

now we constantly come up with the "Prius correlation". the Leaf has no real precedents... (at least none less than 8 years old) this product like the Prius is all new. years in development, done so at great risk and huge amounts of money spent, but we have gone thru all that. Toyota did the same thing. i have a book detailing the Prius development cycle and it pretty much started in the early 90's so 8 years in the making before a product was launched.

but how do these two watershed events in automotive history really compare?

well, both products had/have huge initial demand. it took the Prius essentially till October 1, 2006 to catch up... actually with back orders, we can safely say Jan 1, 2007. more than 3 years after gen 2 release. my wait for my 2004 Prius was over 7 months. now that was after it was released. so if we take a Dec 2010 Leaf release, we are looking at July or so? just to catch the first wave of early adopters. which is pretty much what Nissan said they could do... we shall see how well they execute.

but that does not address the post (remember i said it would be a bit OT)

i think the popularity of the Leaf will explode and like the Prius, Nissan will be playing catchup for a long time. even when Leaf 2 comes out, the price of gas will still make Leaf 1 a very hot commodity since buyers will be looking at more money and an extended wait for Leaf 2 or getting Leaf one right away and eliminating their $600 per month gas bill.

but what we are really talking about is how much Nissan has not done for us. we ignore the awesome discounts we have/are getting. obtw, it was after the Sept 30, 2006 deadline for the maximum $3150 tax credit before Priuses started to be offered at more than a penny below MSRP.

we also ignored the fact that Nissan has actually put a HUGE amount of energy into getting States and Cities to promote green legislation, additional perks for EVs like sales tax waivers (THANK U WA for that $3,000 gift!!) additional state rebates, credits, etc.

now, my state has actually invested a lot of money in helping to encourage EVs, high mileage hybrids, etc. and has done so for years, but even they were motivated to provide even more support to help the Leaf be successful.

and yes, i do understand that we have very limited finances to work with...after all the car does not burn oil so not much money in "oil-free" futures (it aint plastic!!) so the best way to spend what money we do have is paramount to a successful launch...

so we can put it into QC stations where will fill up our Leafs just like we filled up our gas cars, or we can take advantage of the 180 million plug in options we have at home....hmmm????

go out of the way to charge in a "short" 20 minutes

or

spend 20 seconds to plug in at home
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LakeLeaf
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:39 am

edatoakrun wrote:
Can Bay area LEAF owners conveniently drive to Reno/Tahoe?



Good thought there!

Early on, I had numerous discussions with Nissan and the local government agencies who surround Lake Tahoe. I tried to pitch this exact idea to them. Wouldn't it be great to put in place the infrastructure to allow Bay area people to drive their all electric, non-polluting vehicles to and around one America's most beautiful and most ecologically fragile locations. Talk about making a statement! Tahoe is trying to increase tourism by marketing itself as a "eco-destination" or a "green" destination (although here we call it a blue destination). I managed to get the local energy provider on board - they were pretty excited about the idea, as were some of the folks on the combined tourism and marketing boards and various county and city representitives, but after a couple of back and forths, Nissan stopped participating in the discussion and everything came to a halt.

I still think it's a great idea - great marketing for EV's to have a destination like Lake Tahoe open it's arms and embrace the new.

edatoakrun
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Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:55 am

"go out of the way to charge in a "short" 20 minutes

or

spend 20 seconds to plug in at home"

I don't think the answer is either/or, I think it's both.

Roadside charging will probably never be as "fast" as home, in terms of driver time.

And home charging will never give the range required by drivers.

The greatest advantage of EV's is the current Electric grid infrastructure can be relatively easily and cheaply adapted to both charging methods. The market model for home charging is well established. The market model for public charging will only emerge when enough EV's are on the road to support it.

I think that, eventually, the infrastructure will develop into a >90% night time "slow" charge load, and a <10% fast-charge load, probably much more expensive per KW, based on additional "station" and peak-power load costs.

But without the fast-charge option, EV's can never be a consideration for many American Car buyers. I think that NIssan should realized that in a few years the buyer subsidies will run out, aned the "trendy" buyer will disapear, as has largely happened for hybrids, even at today's gas prices.

The LEAF and other EV's will have to compete with ICE, And plug-in ICE cars. There better be a L3 netork in place then, if the LEAF is going to be a success for Nissan.
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