Heater/Cabin Temp Management Suggestions and Observations

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nosuchthing

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
740
I finally got to try the heater.
I expected instant heat like, say a hair dryer. Not happening. I put the temp at 90 (highest) and ran it at lowest fan speed. Lukeworm at best. I got tired of that fast and cranked up the fan to the middle. It took 1-2 minutes to finally feel the heat and warm up the car (outside temp about 40 F). I turned the fan down to one notch afterwards and it seemed fine with the heat output finally holding. So it actually works when needed.

Here is my suggestion for improvement. In older cars a turn knob does the analog temp setting that takes about 1 second to turn. In the last 20 years I have always kept it at 3 positions: cold, hot or middle of the range. I do not want to spend 15 seconds doing click click clik click and more click click clik clik up to 30 times to get from the battery-saving 60 F to range-anxiety producing 90 F and another 30 clicks to get back to 60 F again.

If Nissan thinks we need this degree-by-degree obesessive temp management then they need to change the clicking to holding the button that allows FOR FAST NUMBER RUN. Right now when I hold the button down it goes SOOOO SLOW that it is actually faster to change the numbers by going click click click.

Secondly, since most of the drivers I observed are like me, which is, hot cold or middle, why don't you, Nissan, just change the temp to increments of 5 as in 60, 65, 70, 75 ... all the way to 90. It will be scalable by 6 clicks, not 30 with pretty much the same result.
 
I dont have a problem with using digital settings.
I do have a problem getting used to the idiosyncracies of the heater, including very slow warm up, and intermittent not heating.
 
ILETRIC said:
I finally got to try the heater.
I expected instant heat like, say a hair dryer. Not happening. I put the temp at 90 (highest) and ran it at lowest fan speed. Lukeworm at best. I got tired of that fast and cranked up the fan to the middle. It took 1-2 minutes to finally feel the heat and warm up the car (outside temp about 40 F).
Were you in 'D' or in 'ECO'?
 
ILETRIC said:
I expected instant heat like, say a hair dryer. Not happening. I put the temp at 90 (highest) and ran it at lowest fan speed. Lukeworm at best. I got tired of that fast and cranked up the fan to the middle. It took 1-2 minutes to finally feel the heat and warm up the car (outside temp about 40 F). I turned the fan down to one notch afterwards and it seemed fine with the heat output finally holding. So it actually works when needed.
This is a carry-over from the "ICE age". Think about your gas car. When you get into a cold car and start the engine, do you get heat right away? No, because the engine has to warm up, and it has to warm up the water, then the water can warm the air that is blowing into the cabin.

Nissan got rid of the engine, but kept the water. The heating coils have to warm up (that's almost instantaneous) then they have to warm up the water before you can start getting heat. There have been many complaints about that on this board, and many have suggested it is stupid. The best reason I have heard for the design is that you can preheat the car with it plugged in, and the mass of the water retains a lot of heat for after you unplug and start driving.

ILETRIC said:
I do not want to spend 15 seconds doing click click clik click and more click click clik clik up to 30 times to get from the battery-saving 60 F to range-anxiety producing 90 F and another 30 clicks to get back to 60 F again.
Hear, hear! Two-button digital is not always better than analog. A dial would be much more usable.

Ray
 
ILETRIC said:
I finally got to try the heater.
I expected instant heat like, say a hair dryer. Not happening. I put the temp at 90 (highest) and ran it at lowest fan speed. Lukeworm at best. I got tired of that fast and cranked up the fan to the middle. It took 1-2 minutes to finally feel the heat and warm up the car (outside temp about 40 F). I turned the fan down to one notch afterwards and it seemed fine with the heat output finally holding. So it actually works when needed.

Here is my suggestion for improvement. In older cars a turn knob does the analog temp setting that takes about 1 second to turn. In the last 20 years I have always kept it at 3 positions: cold, hot or middle of the range. I do not want to spend 15 seconds doing click click clik click and more click click clik clik up to 30 times to get from the battery-saving 60 F to range-anxiety producing 90 F and another 30 clicks to get back to 60 F again.

If Nissan thinks we need this degree-by-degree obesessive temp management then they need to change the clicking to holding the button that allows FOR FAST NUMBER RUN. Right now when I hold the button down it goes SOOOO SLOW that it is actually faster to change the numbers by going click click click.

Secondly, since most of the drivers I observed are like me, which is, hot cold or middle, why don't you, Nissan, just change the temp to increments of 5 as in 60, 65, 70, 75 ... all the way to 90. It will be scalable by 6 clicks, not 30 with pretty much the same result.

:) I am a bit embarrased to say this but I am currently using the 12V handheld heater @ ~$10 with coupon from Harbor Freight. http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-rubberized-heater-with-fan-96144.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's left plugged in the 12V and when I turn on the car, the heat just comes right on. I can easily warm my right hand very quickly by reaching the palm of my right hand over the unit.

And, I just leave the unit upright on the passenger seat since I use it for my morning commutes. For San Francisco Bay Area 48degF temps it works okay. I set my climate control to OFF and recirc so that the warm air generated by the handheld doesn't escape. I turn on/off the defogger temporarily whenever I need it.

Not the best solution but it works quite alright for me. Some days I don't even need to wear a light jacket anymore...
 
mxp said:
:) I am a bit embarrased to say this but I am currently using the 12V handheld heater @ ~$10 with coupon from Harbor Freight. http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-rubberized-heater-with-fan-96144.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's left plugged in the 12V and when I turn on the car, the heat just comes right on. I can easily warm my right hand very quickly by reaching the palm of my right hand over the unit.

And, I just leave the unit upright on the passenger seat since I use it for my morning commutes. For San Francisco Bay Area 48degF temps it works okay. I set my climate control to OFF and recirc so that the warm air generated by the handheld doesn't escape. I turn on/off the defogger temporarily whenever I need it.

Not the best solution but it works quite alright for me. Some days I don't even need to wear a light jacket anymore...

I was very surprised to learn that LEAF didn't use ceramic heating elements. As you have seen, even 150W produces quite a bit of instant heat through a ceramic element. Imagine what you'd get with 2KW!
 
I've been wondering if EVs in cold climates could be well served with alcohol heaters. They use those on sailboats don't they? You could pour in say a gallon at a time now and then, sort of like Coleman fuel (naptha?). Seems that would be fairly green, isn't alcohol carbon neutral except for all the fossil fuel you have to dump into the process to make it? :mrgreen:
 
I'm beginning to think that the water heating heater was left in the leaf with the idea that preheating would be the primary way of heating up the cabin for long distance commutes. Much of the time now I'm actually charging to 80% overnight with the idea that I will preheat to 100% charge before heading out in the morning, if I need to go a long distance. by doing this, the car is nice and warm and stays nice and warm with climate control turned off and mode set to foot/defog, windows clear. this is comfortable, convenient and appears to have the bonus of heating up the battery and improving range all at the same time. Maybe it's a fluke or maybe they actually really did think this through. It's either brilliant by design or brilliant by mistake, I'll take it either way.

the times I don't need to conserve range, I just put it on auto around 68-70 and leave it that way with the mode set to foot/defog... no hassle, no fiddling, warm and comfortable.
 
I am beginning, after two weeks of fiddling and consulting here on MNL, to get the hang of the heater.
I charge to 80%, but on days I need some heat I charge to 100%, with the assumption that the extra 20% can absorb the heat use.

But the latest posts have given me this other idea; that you preheat the coils and the heater water and so reduce the need for a better charge in the battery.

A question: Going home, can I preheat without depleting the battery while trickle charging?
At work, I often have the oppty to plug in to a wall socket in the garage.
 
ILETRIC said:
I do not want to spend 15 seconds doing click click clik click and more click click clik clik up to 30 times to get from the battery-saving 60 F to range-anxiety producing 90 F and another 30 clicks to get back to 60 F again.

There is no benefit to turning it all the way up to 90 unless you actually want the temperature to stabilize that high. If the actual air temperature is 40 or 50F, the initial heating power rate will be identical whether the thermostat is set to 60 or 90 (just watch the climate control power display, if it is up around 4kW you are getting full heating). Putting it up to 90 doesn't make it work any harder for you, the setting is for temperature not heating power. After the temperature has risen, the heater appears to throttle back to lower power, rather than zero, at or near the thermostat setting, at this point you might get higher power by cranking up the thermostat, but if it is at/near the temperature you want this will just cause overshoot and waste precious battery capacity on unnecessary heating. Set the thermostat to a value you can be comfortable (probably less than 65 if you're wearing some warm clothes, and let it regulate the temperature as it is designed when it is cold out, and turn the whole climate system off when you don't need it for better range.

I agree that the water coupled heater response time is undesirable. Other threads have identified reasons of safety, reuse of existing ICE climate system components, and some amount of preheat storage in the liquid as potential reasons behind the choice of this system, but it really would have been nice to have instant heating associated with several kW of direct air heating if it had to be resistive heating. A heat pump would have made more sense from an energy efficiency standpoint. As it stands, the various comfort treatments that people have worked out off the 12V system (heated seats, motorcycle jackets, hand warmers, etc.) probably make the most sense for addressing modest heating needs and faster response, while the main heater should be engaged for the brute heating under more demanding conditions.

Howdy
 
GaslessInSeattle said:
I'm beginning to think that the water heating heater was left in the leaf with the idea that preheating would be the primary way of heating up the cabin for long distance commutes.

I have a different theory about why the heater uses water: The LEAF uses a conventional automotive climate control system, and they just needed two specialized parts to make it work, an electric compressor and a source of hot water. It was about adapting as much off the shelf stuff as possible.
 
After three weeks of playing with it and reading here, I am convinced that most of the trouble with the heater is lack of patience and not using the design to its full potential.
pre-heat is a must and stick with AUTO (with AC). Set the temp, and if you want old-fashioned car heat, then set it high; like at least 75 degrees.
as others have said, setting it at 90 doesnt get it working faster.
and yes, if you set it at, say 72, when it gets there it adjusts from jsut heat the feet to heat the upper part of the cabin.
you can watch the switcheroo on the menu setting.
 
Maybe this question should be a new topic, but here goes...
What I'd like to know is, how to turn off the heater, and just get fresh air?

It is obvious how to turn off the A/C on a hot day, and get fresh air.
There's a on/off button for the A/C. But not for the heater. If the outside
temp is below 60F, and I turn on the climate control, then (I think) the car
is going to use electricity to heat the air.

And, please don't say "Open the window." That's a little too much air,
at least in December. ;)

Ben
 
benjwhite9 said:
Maybe this question should be a new topic, but here goes...
What I'd like to know is, how to turn off the heater, and just get fresh air?

It is obvious how to turn off the A/C on a hot day, and get fresh air.
There's a on/off button for the A/C. But not for the heater. If the outside
temp is below 60F, and I turn on the climate control, then (I think) the car
is going to use electricity to heat the air.

And, please don't say "Open the window." That's a little too much air,
at least in December. ;)

Ben

Below the auto button is an on/off switch, hit it till you see it say "climate control off" on the screen, make sure you choose the fresh air button and not the recirculate... you will get fresh air, but no fan. touching the fan buttons, up or down, activates Climate Control. if mode is set to foot/defog, it should keep the windows clear at moderate speeds with zero energy use.
 
thankyouOB said:
A question: Going home, can I preheat without depleting the battery while trickle charging?
At work, I often have the oppty to plug in to a wall socket in the garage.

Page 4-12 of the manual. The remote climate control uses the capacity of the power outlet; on 120V, the performance of the system is limited to what the grid can give you, therefore, if it is VERY cold, it may not warm up to the default temperature.

However, the remote climate control feature works for up to 2 hours when plugged in, (15 minutes when not) which should be more that enough time to warm up a very cold car.
 
amtoro said:
thankyouOB said:
A question: Going home, can I preheat without depleting the battery while trickle charging?
At work, I often have the oppty to plug in to a wall socket in the garage.

Page 4-12 of the manual. The remote climate control uses the capacity of the power outlet; on 120V, the performance of the system is limited to what the grid can give you, therefore, if it is VERY cold, it may not warm up to the default temperature.

However, the remote climate control feature works for up to 2 hours when plugged in, (15 minutes when not) which should be more that enough time to warm up a very cold car.
I have L1 pre-heated from 40F to 72F.

Bill
 
I imagine that when Nissan wrote "very cold", they meant "really cold", as in a Canadian or Scandinavian winter (like when the battery heating blanket comes on).
 
amtoro said:
...

However, the remote climate control feature works for up to 2 hours when plugged in, (15 minutes when not) which should be more that enough time to warm up a very cold car.

and interestingly enough, long enough to go from 80% to100% in moderate cold conditions, warming the battery internally as well as undoubtedly warming the core of the car and battery from the cabin heat... both those things combined seems to add quite a bit of potential range and may explain why I've been able to maintain 4.2 MPkW at moderate highway speed driving, even in the low 30's.
 
A few days ago, we had a few fairly cold mornings; I charged the car with the timer to 80% but then turn on the remote charging about 30 minutes before leaving, that warms up the battery and gives me about 86% SOC which should not affect the battery life in the long term and gives me a bit more energy to run the heater longer if needed.

EDIT: I did this because I was also not sure about my available range on those first days with the LEAF; now I'm confident and I know that 80% is enough for us. I also want to give the battery about one hour to relax before driving away.
 
Does D or Eco affect how fast the body of heater water heats up? Anyone know?

I really thought Leaf was equipped with resistive ceramic heating. Now it all makes more sense and preheating is an obvious must. Thanks all for good input. Now Nissan needs to read it and take notes.

I still think analog knob is a better way. All these "improvements" in new cars these days are not necessarily good. I do agree that turning it to 90 to get "some heat going" is a carryover from ICE. Plenty of heat there, isn't it? At least we get some use out of all that wasted combustion heat, right?

Somebody mentioned passive air intake. I do that most of the time Leafin' around. Now matter where the temp is, all it takes is turn the thing to off and push the MODE button to make sure you're in air-to-face mode. I found too many times it somehow automatically defaults to FEET. In the beginning I thought there was something wrong with the car. So now when switching from fan to passive air I go Off & Mode to get to passive air-to-face mode. That is usually followed by defog button ;) as the windshield fogs up in a few minutes, especially at night, and after about 1 minute of defogging I hit Off and Mode again. Back and forth. I don't want to run defog full time with AC on at 70 - that would be too much battery.

Once the battery capacity doubles or triples (Magnesium Ion) this will all be just a distant memory.
 
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