LeftieBiker
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Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:28 am

The GenZe has a 36V 350W brushless rear hub motor. Hopefully, that will be enough to go up some small hills.


Modest hills should be no problem. Expect to do most of the work on steep ones.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
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Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:04 pm

mxp wrote:Its the hilly terrain (to the park area) and distance which makes the biking not so much fun.
Plus, I think I could convince the wife to spend more time riding a bicycle, if she knew she could make it back home (on electric power) when fatigue sets in.

$1000 is still a huge expense which we would need to think through, especially how often the bike will get utilized....

Thanks. Mission Peak? I often hike up to the top on T-giving, XMAS, new year's and/or my birthday, if I'm not out of town, otherwise busy or just lazy. I'm usually the token Caucasian, along with several hundred people of south or east Asian descent making the same hike. :lol:

As to whether you'll have enough power to climb, absolutely:
During a bicycle race, a well trained cyclist can produce / sustain close to 400 watts of mechanical power over an hour and in very short bursts over double that: 1000 to 1100 watts (modern racing cycles have greater than 95% mechanical efficiency). An adult of good fitness is more likely to average between 50 and 150 watts for an hour of vigorous exercise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_pow ... able_power

IIRR, Bryan Allen, who pedaled Paul MacCready's Gossamer Albatross across the English Channel, had to sustain something like 0.7 hp (522W) for almost 2.5 hours, but he was a serious amateur bike racer.

I'm assuming that neither you or your wife are world class racing cyclists, so it's unlikely that you can produce anywhere near 350 watts. BTW, before you make the decision, you might want to go over to S.F. some weekend and rent e-bikes. There are numerous places to choose from, and that will give you the opportunity to try them out on seriously hilly terrain. Just google 'San Francisco electric bike rentals'. Even if you can't try the same model you can probably find one with similar features to get some idea of what you like and dislike, and will save you some cash if you decide against it. Unfortunately, the only time I've ridden e-bikes, although it was in S.F., we were restricted to flat ground so I couldn't try them out on the hills - I would have loved to have tried either the Hyde or Mason street cable car routes to see if I could do them sitting. My reviews of those bikes are here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10256&start=150#p472116

I'd recommend renting a couple of different bikes with noticeably different specs to swap between you or even just take several for a test ride (if the store allows) before renting one for the day. I was quite surprised at how very different each of the bikes I rode above felt, even in the benign conditions.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:58 pm

You can't directly compare human-generated watts of power with hub-motor-generated watts because of the relatively low low-speed torque of the latter. It's something like a human cyclist with the seat set way too low, so their legs are straining against very steep angles to pedal. I have a 350 watt rear hubmotor bike sitting in the garage that my Sister bought and gave up on, and that bike is a real weakling on hills. Serious hill climbing requires at least a geared motor of some kind (my EZIP uses a separate motor/chain drive powered by a 450 watt DC motor) and preferably a mid-drive motor that can use all of the gear ratios available to the human. So no, a 350 watt hubmotor isn't going to provide as much power on hills as an average human. If you want to climb real hills with a hubmotor bike, look for 750-1000 watts.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
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Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:43 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:You can't directly compare human-generated watts of power with hub-motor-generated watts because of the relatively low low-speed torque of the latter. It's something like a human cyclist with the seat set way too low, so their legs are straining against very steep angles to pedal. I have a 350 watt rear hubmotor bike sitting in the garage that my Sister bought and gave up on, and that bike is a real weakling on hills. Serious hill climbing requires at least a geared motor of some kind (my EZIP uses a separate motor/chain drive powered by a 450 watt DC motor) and preferably a mid-drive motor that can use all of the gear ratios available to the human. So no, a 350 watt hubmotor isn't going to provide as much power on hills as an average human. If you want to climb real hills with a hubmotor bike, look for 750-1000 watts.

I guess we have different use expectations, but to me I look at an e-bike as a pedelec, providing up to an extra 350W, not replacing my entire input. For the latter, I might as well buy an electric scooter or motorcycle rather than a pedelec - I expect to always pedal the latter, rather than just being along for the ride, and that certainly includes climbing hills. I'm not sure where mxp and his wife come down on this.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:03 pm

I'm NOT saying that one should expect an E-bike to do all the work on hills for the rider - that would take more than 1000 watts at least, for a hubmotor bike. I'm saying that a rating of 350 watts (which is often the input consumption rating anyway, not actual power output) doesn't translate into that much power being available to assist with hill climbing. A mid-drive system could do it with the bike in a low gear, but remember that hubmotors have fixed "gearing" and will stall easily at low speeds under higher loads. The bike that I called a "weakling" essentially forced me to do 90% of the work on a pretty typical hill.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

jbuntz
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Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:53 pm

I have a 36v bionx rear hub on a cyclocross bike. A 250w front hub on a cruiser and now a Felt dedicated e bike with the shimano mid drive.
Th felt is by far the most versatile. It can climb a 20% grade with 300+ lbs of bike and rider and neither break a sweat. The bionx climbs like crazy and is fast. Easily cruising along at 20+mph. The cruiser is lame at any thing other than mostly flat terrain.
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30 Apr 2017 5175 mi 324 GID Ahr 70.75 SOH 89% Hx 85.31% kWh 25.1
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:58 pm

How many watts is the Bionx rated?
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:53 pm

An earlier post mentioned UPS doing this in Portland. Via GCR:
UPS to deliver packages in Florida via electric bikes
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114171_ups-to-deliver-packages-in-florida-via-electric-bikes

. . . UPS has launched its first silent electric delivery trike along Las Olas Boulevard and the surrounding neighborhoods of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. UPS is deploying the trike to support the the city’s Green Your Routine program and Vision Zero Fort Lauderdale initiative. . . .

[Fort Lauderdale Mayor John P. “Jack” Seiler] “The new bike is a great addition to the street safety enhancements we are making along Las Olas Boulevard to create a friendlier, safer, healthier, and more sustainable experience for everyone, regardless of travel mode.” The initiative is one of many city-level efforts aiming at reducing road fatalities to zero through the redesign of transportation systems. . . .

Like many e-bikes on the market, the UPS solution is more like a moped, combining an electric motor with pedal power for maximum efficiency. The trike can also run solely on battery power or pedal power. (I think we know which will be used more often.) According to manufacturer Truck Trike of Portland, the custom UPS trike can travel at speeds up to 18 mph. It delivers a range of up to 20 miles on a full charge, weighs in at roughly 400 pounds, and has a payload capacity of 800 pounds.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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