User avatar
evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11442
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Autonomous driving LEAF, and the implications for BEVs.

Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:52 pm

cwerdna wrote:http://electrek.co/2016/07/01/images-aftermath-fatal-tesla-autopilot-crash-video/ has news coverage and an image of the decimated car. They spoke to a person who said a woman doing 85 mph was passed by the Model S, in question.

Then there was the claim again that a movie was playing in the center dash display, which is supposedly impossible.


According to this report - Police say he was going the posted 65 mph speed limit.

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_ ... l-accident

Police estimate Brown was traveling at the posted 65-mph speed limit.


AP, from what I've read limits speed to posted limit + 5 mph.

I'd say, this is - atleast partly - truck driver's fault if Tesla wasn't speeding.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

GRA
Posts: 9245
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Autonomous driving LEAF, and the implications for BEVs.

Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:28 pm

evnow wrote:
cwerdna wrote:http://electrek.co/2016/07/01/images-aftermath-fatal-tesla-autopilot-crash-video/ has news coverage and an image of the decimated car. They spoke to a person who said a woman doing 85 mph was passed by the Model S, in question.

Then there was the claim again that a movie was playing in the center dash display, which is supposedly impossible.


According to this report - Police say he was going the posted 65 mph speed limit.

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_ ... l-accident

Police estimate Brown was traveling at the posted 65-mph speed limit.


AP, from what I've read limits speed to posted limit + 5 mph.

I'd say, this is - at least partly - truck driver's fault if Tesla wasn't speeding.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. BTW, that Mercury News article states the crash happened at 3:40 which is incorrect, as the Highway Patrol report says 4:40 not once but twice, and also includes the dispatch (4:41) and arrival (4:44) [Correction, Dispatch time, not arrival. On-scene arrival time of the officer was 5:10] times of the officer making the report. The report also says that the Tesla was in the right hand lane going straight, and there's no mention of any attempt to brake or skid marks. I used an online solar calculator to determine where the sun's azimuth and elevation would be at 4:40 EDT in Bronson (265.4 true, 44.4 degrees), and estimated the Tesla's true heading from both the overhead view Google map and the Street View, at between 100 and 120 true, so the sun would have been between 145 and 165 degrees to the right rear of the driver, and probably still too high to reach him through the back window, depending on whether or not he had the pano roof - in any case, glare on the windshield wasn't a factor, and the semi would have been unmistakable, whether reflecting the sun or not.

Given the completely unobstructed view of the road ahead on both sides of the median, plus the fact that Brown was in the right lane and must have hit the trailer between the aft axle of the tractor and the forward axle of the trailer to continue on beyond it in nearly a straight line, he clearly didn't react AT ALL from the time when the truck started to make the turn until more than half of it had crossed both lanes in front of him. This is incomprehensible if he was paying attention to the road, regardless of whether he or autopilot was doing the steering and controlling the speed in the run up.

So, I could maybe see responsibility being assessed as 1/3rd Brown, 1/3rd Tesla and 1/3rd Baressi if he's found at fault. If not, then it could go anywhere from 50/50 to 90/10 either way between Brown and Tesla. Brown's decision to abdicate responsibility for his own and other people's safety and give it to his car gives him ultimate responsibility for the accident and his own death, but the fact that Autopilot allows the driver to even make that decision, when the sensors/software clearly lack the necessary capability, makes Tesla culpable as well. If Brown was using Autopilot and speeding at the time (we'll see), that really boosts Tesla's culpability. At least, that's how I'd see it if I were deciding things.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9245
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Autonomous driving LEAF, and the implications for BEVs.

Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:59 pm

Via IEVS:
BMW, Intel and Mobileye Autonomous Driving For 2021 Conference – Tesla Autopilot Accident Reaction
http://insideevs.com/bmw-intel-and-mobi ... -reaction/

. . . Amnon Shashua (Mobileye) said that Level 3 (eyes-off) in 2021 would be limited to highways, but that on a highway “you are completely safe”

    “That means you can really take eyes off, and there is a significant grace period from the time when the system is compromised until you really need to take control. And if you don’t take control, the system will know how to stop aside slowly in a safely manner.”

Indeed. Here's a Slate writer's take on the accident: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/201 ... _died.html
Note the title overstates the known facts, but writers don't write headlines, editors do.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9245
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Autonomous driving LEAF, and the implications for BEVs.

Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:54 pm

evnow wrote:According to this report - Police say he was going the posted 65 mph speed limit.

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_ ... l-accident

Police estimate Brown was traveling at the posted 65-mph speed limit.


AP, from what I've read limits speed to posted limit + 5 mph.

I'd say, this is - at least partly - truck driver's fault if Tesla wasn't speeding.
Thanks for the info re the v7.1 AP update, which limited it to 5 mph over the speed limit back in January - before that it wasn't so limited. That's reasonable given how people actually drive, at least until speed limits are set using more rational criteria and most cars are equipped with autonomous technology that also knows the speed limits in effect, at which time it should be changed to prevent speeding.

However, the limit does seem to have some nuances - here's a description of how it would work:
According to the release notes for the v7.1 update, the speed limit function is only activated when the car is on “Residential roads or roads without a center divider”. So it appears that drivers will still be able to drive the car as fast as they’d like on the highway.
http://learnbonds.com/125950/tesla-moto ... e-sort-of/

If the above is accurate, then unless AP has been updated past v7.1 it would still be possible to set the cruise and use AP well above the speed limit in this instance, as it was a divided (but not limited-access) highway. Can anyone confirm? I saw that Tesla announced they'd be coming out with v8.0 soon, and this was more or less at the same time as the crash was announced.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11442
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Autonomous driving LEAF, and the implications for BEVs.

Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:29 pm

GRA wrote:So, I could maybe see responsibility being assessed as 1/3rd Brown, 1/3rd Tesla and 1/3rd Baressi if he's found at fault. If not, then it could go anywhere from 50/50 to 90/10 either way between Brown and Tesla.

Brown had right of way. Baressi shouldn't expect him to brake and decide to make a left turn, based on that assumption.

I should say - it is not uncommon for large vehicles to take such turns and expect small vehicles to brake - after all, the small vehicle driver will have to pay a big price, as we saw here.

We don't know what really happened - either Brown was not paying attention, or somehow thought he could either beat the truck or thought the truck would have passed by the time he came to the junction .... but in all cases Baressi turned infront of a vehicle he shouldn't have turmed. Baressi also says he waited for another car to pass through and then turned. So he was starting from zero - and given the slow acceleration, it would take some time for him to turn. Did he not see Tesla ? But it seems he saw it (says Tesla moved from left to right lane) - why did he misjudge whether he could safely clear the junction before Tesla came ?He was surprised that Tesla changed the lane - but the truck should clear the crossing - not assume he will be able to clear the left lane, but not right - but that is ok. It seems the road was fairly empty - so all Baressi had to do was to wait for a few more seconds, let Tesla also go and then turn.

Police report : http://documents.latimes.com/tesla-accident-report/
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

User avatar
evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11442
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Autonomous driving LEAF, and the implications for BEVs.

Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:40 pm

From TMC this is apparently Joshua's family response. Any kind of law suite looks unlikely.

"In honor of Josh’s life and passion for technological advancement, the Brown family is committed to cooperating in these efforts and hopes that information learned from this tragedy will trigger further innovation which enhances the safety of everyone on the roadways."
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

cwerdna
Posts: 8217
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Autonomous driving LEAF, and the implications for BEVs.

Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:41 pm

GRA wrote:However, the limit does seem to have some nuances - here's a description of how it would work:
According to the release notes for the v7.1 update, the speed limit function is only activated when the car is on “Residential roads or roads without a center divider”. So it appears that drivers will still be able to drive the car as fast as they’d like on the highway.
http://learnbonds.com/125950/tesla-moto ... e-sort-of/

If the above is accurate, then unless AP has been updated past v7.1 it would still be possible to set the cruise and use AP well above the speed limit in this instance, as it was a divided (but not limited-access) highway.

Yes, Googling for terms like tesla 7.1 update limit mph seems to confirm this.

A comment at https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/fo ... 5-mph-only says "TACC setting has an upper limit of 90mph based on my testing on I-10 on the way to Phoenix. It also has a lower limit of 18mph. Auto steer shuts off above 90mph."

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Autonomous driving LEAF, and the implications for BEVs.

Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:29 am

evnow wrote:From TMC this is apparently Joshua's family response. Any kind of law suite looks unlikely.

"In honor of Josh’s life and passion for technological advancement, the Brown family is committed to cooperating in these efforts and hopes that information learned from this tragedy will trigger further innovation which enhances the safety of everyone on the roadways."


that is too bad. any software that designs criminal behavior into the program should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11442
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Autonomous driving LEAF, and the implications for BEVs.

Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:00 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:that is too bad. any software that designs criminal behavior into the program should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law

Tesla's AP software doesn't "design criminal behavior" anymore than software that lets you use credit cards over the internet.

It is one thing to say AP software should have put in place more checks - but entirely different to say "designs criminal behavior".

Current Tesla AP is no more than Merc's new lane keeping software (which apparently doesn't work as well). Level 2 AP is not intended to be level 5.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6326
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Autonomous driving LEAF, and the implications for BEVs.

Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:33 am

Another Tesla Model S crashes in autopilot mode on July 1, rolling over on the PA turnpike.
Detroit Free Press wrote:In his crash report, Vukovich stated that Scaglione's car was traveling east near mile marker 160, about 5 p.m. when it hit a guard rail "off the right side of the roadway. It then crossed over the eastbound lanes and hit the concrete median."
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

Return to “Off-Topic”