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TomT
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Location: Foothills of Granada Hills, CA
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Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:45 am

Yep, we have two fold-up models that we keep on our boat for use when we visit various marinas and Catalina. Surprisingly light, powerful and long-ranged. We'll occasionally take them in the car to various locations too...
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier. Model 3 configured.

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:57 pm

Debated whether to put this here or in the Electric Motorcycle thread, as it's a 28 mph moped rather than a pedelec. As it looks more like a bicycle, opted for here. Via GCC:
Peugeot introducing eU01s 45 km/h electric bicycle
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/09 ... ugeot.html

. . . Bridging the gap between traditional 25 km/h electric bicycles and scooters, the eU01s offers the rider an agile and rapid cross-town journey. The eU01s will be presented at the Paris Motor Show and launched at the end of 2016.

Peugeot has made urban mobility a core priority with several new innovations being introduced this year: the eC01 electrically-assisted bicycle with automatic transmission, the e-Kick electrically-assisted scooter and the eF01 electrically-assisted folding bicycle.

The eU01s comes under the moped category requiring insurance, registration and a helmet. A Bosch Performance Line electric motor combines with a 400 or 500 Wh lithium-ion battery to offer a range of 75 or 95 kilometers (47 or 59 miles). . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:06 pm

At the S.F, version of National Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Day yesterday, got to test ride three pedelecs, provided by the New Wheel electric bike shop of San Francisco: http://newwheel.net/. Sadly, all rides were restricted to the flat parking lot at Pier 27, so I wasn't able to try out the assist anywhere I really needed it, despite San Francisco's hills staring at me just across the Embarcadero.

The three models on hand were the Gazelle Arroyo C8 (actually the bike they had there was labeled 'Orange C7', but they appear to be similar); A Haibike model, I believe the Enduro Cross SM; and a Stromer ST2. The Gazelle was in essence a Dutch comfort bike with electric assist added - step through frame, upright seating position, covered chain, serious rear rack, etc. Frankly, I couldn't see the point. On flat roads who needs assist, unless you're constantly riding in strong headwinds? To me, 'pedelec' and 'leisure' just don't go together, unless it's a cargo bike. The battery is located below the rear rack, and designed to be easily removed and carried (built-in handle). The motor control was on the left (I'd prefer right), but well sized and shaped for thumb use without looking.

The Stromer was at the opposite end of the spectrum. Calling it an e-bike is sort of like saying that a Panamera S e-hybrid is a PHEV. Riding it with no assistance was an effort, as it's built halfway to a motorcycle, and I wouldn't want to carry it up stairs even with the battery removed. I found that it had by far the most power and torque of the three, and with assist at max. it often felt like the bike was running away from you, it's accel was that fast - unlike the other two, which are limited to assist below about 16 or 18 mph, the Stromer keeps helping up to 28 mph. From a standing start I was able to accelerate to just over 29 mph in what I'd estimate was less than 50 yards. I'd never want to use max. assist on this bike in traffic. '1' was fine, and '2' was reasonably controllable, but '3' was a matter of gangway! for anyone who hadn't just been riding a motorcycle.

I made sure to warn the people who followed me in riding it not to put it to max. right off the bat, because it just doesn't feel like a bike. But all of us (the guys, anyway) came back from our rides with stupid grins on our faces (if somewhat abashed), expressing some variety of 'whoa!, this ain't your mom's bike!' I wouldn't want to ride it maxed out except on a open road with near zero traffic. I'm also under the impression that you might need to license this, as I thought the law was anything with motor assist over 18 mph counted as a moped. [Edit. They changed the law here last year, and I missed it: http://www.peopleforbikes.org/blog/entr ... california]

Price is high, as you'd expect: $6,990. The battery is locked inside a frame compartment with a cover, so I didn't get to check it out; I see it's credited with 814Wh and up to 90 miles of range. The motor control is on the right, well placed for and sized for thumb use, and there's an LCD display of speed, range, battery state, power setting etc. on top of the top tube.

The Haibike seemed the best compromise to me, light enough to ride without assist much of the time and get a good workout (and maybe even carry up a flight of stairs) or do a fast commute, not excessively powered but able to cruise around 20 mph with reasonable effort and full control. I have no need for a suspension on a street bike, so I'd prefer it without that to save money and weight. The battery is attached and locked to the down tube and has a handle, so is as easy to get to and remove as the Gazelle. The only thing I thought could be improved was to move the motor control/display from the left to the right side, putting all the shifting etc. over there, and it was perhaps the control that looked the most like an add-on instead of an integral part of the bike. Worked fine, though.

It occurs to me that widespread use of pedelecs would lead to cyclists being more willing to obey stop signs and red lights, instead of cruising through them whenever it's clear (and often when it isn't, to driver's fury). We're trying to conserve energy by not having to accelerate from a standstill, but with the motor to assist you, it's no big deal. In my case, I'll stick to a bike powered by myself as long as I can, as I ride for exercise as much as for transportation, and it's far too tempting to succumb to the siren song of minimal effort hill climbing. But if I had to commute in a city like S.F. over those hills on a daily basis, I could definitely see this as a great option.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7393
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:10 pm

The EZIP's Pedelec Mode is rather dangerous from a standing start, as it comes on only after one full pedal revolution (as you're struggling to get moving quickly), and then with its full power (about 1/3 of maximum available), all at once. Do these bikes have a better Pedelec system? I use the throttle mode from standing starts, and it works great for that. I then switch to Pedelec when moving and not expecting to stop.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:35 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:The EZIP's Pedelec Mode is rather dangerous from a standing start, as it comes on only after one full pedal revolution (as you're struggling to get moving quickly), and then with its full power (about 1/3 of maximum available), all at once. Do these bikes have a better Pedelec system? I use the throttle mode from standing starts, and it works great for that. I then switch to Pedelec when moving and not expecting to stop.

The Stromer seems to be similar, you start to pedal and then there's almost a whoosh as the power comes on suddenly and the bike feels like its running away from you for a moment until you mentally catch up, at least with the power set to '3' (max). Whether that would improve with experience, I don't know, as this was the first time I've ridden any e-bike, and my brain is used to providing all the 'go' myself. It may have been the surprise factor as much as anything - I'm used to X acceleration, and got XXXX instead.

The other bikes, I didn't notice it as an issue. Whether that's due to their lower torque or a better power profile, I couldn't say. As with any bike, ride before you buy is the best advice - the character of the three bikes was noticeably different.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:58 pm

Basically, I was wondering if the sensors on the new systems have to "see" one full crank revolution like the primitive one on the EZIP before providing assist, or if they only need a small fraction of one. And also, of course, if the power is applied all at once, or ramps up. It sounds like you answered the second question, but I'm still wondering about the first. Did you have to drive the bike's full weight briefly when you started off, or did the assist come on so quickly it wasn't a problem?
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:41 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Basically, I was wondering if the sensors on the new systems have to "see" one full crank revolution like the primitive one on the EZIP before providing assist, or if they only need a small fraction of one. And also, of course, if the power is applied all at once, or ramps up. It sounds like you answered the second question, but I'm still wondering about the first. Did you have to drive the bike's full weight briefly when you started off, or did the assist come on so quickly it wasn't a problem?

On the Stromer, from what I recall it took less than one full rev for the assist to be noticeable and it increased very quickly on the highest assist setting, but you definitely started off pushing the full weight. On the others, IIRR it was a more gradual increase, or maybe that just reflected the lower torque they provided, but as with the Stromer you still had to push the bike's full weight initially. Sorry I can't be more help, but as I said these were my very first rides on any e-bike, so lots of new sensations, and I was having to recalibrate my expectations on the fly. They were very seductive (well, not so much the Gazelle, which was more akin to pedaling a Lay-Z-Boy around town).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7393
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:18 pm

On the Stromer, from what I recall it took less than one full rev for the assist to be noticeable and it increased very quickly on the highest assist setting, but you definitely started off pushing the full weight. On the others, IIRR it was a more gradual increase, or maybe that just reflected the lower torque they provided, but as with the Stromer you still had to push the bike's full weight initially.


That's what I wanted to know. You wrote earlier that E-bikes might result in cyclists better following traffic laws if they could accelerate easily, but as long as you have to pump against the full weight of the bike at startoff, that's not likely to happen. That's why I'm grateful to have throttle mode (aka "Twist & Go") as well as pedelec. I can stop at those stop signs and still take off again easily.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:01 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
On the Stromer, from what I recall it took less than one full rev for the assist to be noticeable and it increased very quickly on the highest assist setting, but you definitely started off pushing the full weight. On the others, IIRR it was a more gradual increase, or maybe that just reflected the lower torque they provided, but as with the Stromer you still had to push the bike's full weight initially.

That's what I wanted to know. You wrote earlier that E-bikes might result in cyclists better following traffic laws if they could accelerate easily, but as long as you have to pump against the full weight of the bike at startoff, that's not likely to happen. That's why I'm grateful to have throttle mode (aka "Twist & Go") as well as pedelec. I can stop at those stop signs and still take off again easily.

For me, compared to providing all my own acceleration, the effort of providing the initial push starting off from a stop was short enough that it wouldn't be an issue, and I'd happily stop at signs/signals. BTW, I wouldn't put too much weight on my _impressions_/memory of just how much effort was needed or how long it took before assist kicked in. I'm too lacking in prior experience of e-bikes to claim that they're likely to be accurate to that level of detail. I could just as easily be wrong.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Anyone into electric cycling?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:54 pm

Via GCC:
First UPS US delivery eBike debuts in Portland, Oregon
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/12 ... 7-ups.html

UPS has introduced its first eBike in the US. This new electrically-assisted tricycle began delivering packages in Portland, Oregon, on 21 November 21. UPS anticipates this eBike prototype could become a component of its delivery capabilities in some other cities across the country. . . .

The success of this pilot program was first demonstrated in 2012 in collaboration with the city of Hamburg, Germany . . . UPS placed four containers at central locations in the city for interim storage of packages for UPS service providers. From these points, deliveries were made on foot or with specialized bicycles called “Cargo Cruisers,” UPS’ electronically-assisted tricycles.

These alternate delivery solutions helped ease traffic congestion and reduce emissions each working day. Due to the success of the pilot, the Hamburg program was extended in February 2015 for another two years. That model serves as a guidepost for the company’s new program in Portland. . . .

Portland was a logical choice for the first US deployment as UPS already uses traditional bicycles for delivery seasonally in the city.

The eBike is equipped with battery-powered electric motors that makes it possible to cover further distances, carry substantial loads, and navigate hills and other terrain. Maximum energy efficiency is achieved when combining battery power and human power simultaneously. The eBike can be operated solely on battery power or pedal power. During the testing phase, UPS will evaluate the reliability, design, integration to the city’s infrastructure and acceptance of the vehicle. If successful, UPS envisions additional eBike deployment and testing in 2017. . . .

About time someone did this, the next step beyond bike messenger service (which the article/press release notes, UPS was early on in its history). Just sayin'. Photo in the article, plus a link to the UPS press release which contains two more. Private individuals have been providing volunteer bike moving services in Portland for some years now, e.g. http://bikeportland.org/2013/02/01/portland-bike-move-breaks-record-gets-national-attention-82489
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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