Lithium ion batteries suspect in 787 fire

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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-16/ana-s-boeing-787-makes-emergency-landing-amid-battery-indicator.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Further reinforcing the perception lithium ion batteries are dangerous. But this is interesting:

In a worst-case scenario in which the batteries do burn, they are designed to do so in a way that doesn’t threaten the aircraft, Sinnett said. If the jet is airborne, smoke is supposed to be vented out of the compartment so that it doesn’t reach the cabin, he said, and all of the battery cells can ignite without harming the plane’s ability to stay aloft.
 
[sarcasm] I'd only be concerned if the batteries had a chance to ignite the tons of flammable petroleum-based fuel on board. [/sarcasm]
 
Nubo said:
I'd only be concerned if the batteries had a chance to ignite the tons of flammable petroleum-based fuel on board.

Complete bullshit.

Lithium batteries in the cargo have already taken down one B747, and it did not ignite the fuel. Here's what a fire from lithium batteries looks like (and the subsequent crash):

ups_b744_n571up_dubai_100903_3.jpg
 
Total FUD! I've seen Li-ion fires and they burn hotter and faster than any that is kerosine based! They'll quickly burn through and consume aluminum and composites.

Nubo said:
I'd only be concerned if the batteries had a chance to ignite the tons of flammable petroleum-based fuel on board.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Nubo said:
I'd only be concerned if the batteries had a chance to ignite the tons of flammable petroleum-based fuel on board.

Complete bullshit.

Lithium batteries in the cargo have already taken down one B747, and it did not ignite the fuel. Here's what a fire from lithium batteries looks like (and the subsequent crash):

ups_b744_n571up_dubai_100903_3.jpg

I was being rather sarcastic. People fly daily without worrying about the thousands of pounds of Jet A, but I'm sure that the blogosphere will be alight with Lithium horror stories. Not that Lithium chemistry doesn't have issues that require management. Then again, Lead-acid batteries have experienced thermal runaway also in aircraft. Just about anything can be a problem when you're trying to keep hundreds of thousands of pounds aloft in defiance of gravity.

And not to make light of aircraft incidents. I am a pilot. While I've not flown for years there was a time when I reviewed "NTSB Reporter" regularly.
 
Jet fuel won't burn unless it gets mixed with air. Of course it isn't hard to find some air lying around places :)

In the "I didn't know that" category, lithium batteries release their own oxygen to create an inextinguishable fire? Interesting that they were able to create what amounts to a containment structure in the 787. I assume the steel box the LEAF batteries are carried in is not that robust.
 
I suspect the Europeans, and in particular Airbus, will not make a big deal over this as the battery system on the 787 is provided by Thales, a primarily European electronic systems supplier.

http://www.thalesgroup.com/News_and_events/Countries/Spain/Thales_technologies_onboard_the_B787/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
http://news.yahoo.com/japanese-airlines-ground-787s-latest-emergency-162337694--sector.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
... "I think you're nearing the tipping point where they need to regard this as a serious crisis," said Richard Aboulafia, a senior analyst with the Teal Group in Fairfax, Virginia. "This is going to change people's perception of the aircraft if they don't act quickly."

ANA, which said the battery in the forward cargo hold was the same lithium-ion type as one involved in a fire on another Dreamliner at a U.S. airport last week, grounded all 17 of its 787s, and Japan Airlines Co suspended its 787 flights scheduled for Wednesday and Thursday...
... In a statement later, ANA said the main battery in the forward electrical equipment bay was discolored and there were signs of leakage.

Passengers leaving the flight told local TV there was an odor like burning plastic on the plane as soon as it took off...
 
More info specific to the 787

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_01_14_2013_p19-534758.xml&p=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
FAA has grounded them all now.

http://news.yahoo.com/faa-grounds-boeing-787s-address-battery-fires-233910155.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm tellin' ya, this news will gen up more doubt about battery safety amongst the low information types. I wonder how many people out there think this plane is actually battery powered.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Jet fuel won't burn unless it gets mixed with air. Of course it isn't hard to find some air lying around places :)

In the "I didn't know that" category, lithium batteries release their own oxygen to create an inextinguishable fire? Interesting that they were able to create what amounts to a containment structure in the 787. I assume the steel box the LEAF batteries are carried in is not that robust.

Maybe they made the box out of magnesium? That will burn without oxygen also.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
FAA has grounded them all now.

http://news.yahoo.com/faa-grounds-boeing-787s-address-battery-fires-233910155.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm tellin' ya, this news will gen up more doubt about battery safety amongst the low information types. I wonder how many people out there think this plane is actually battery powered.

Fortunately, the FAA will (hopefully) worry more about safety than what 5th grade level thinking adult Tea Bags think.

This is not the first battery fire in aviation history. Certainly, the old NiCads were great explosive devices, and more than one lead/acid has blown up. What's different is how much power these contain in such small packages, and the difficulty of putting out the fire.

I hope this is a wakeup call for the entire aviation industry that these new generation batteries deserve particular handling and safety protocols that didn't exist previously. There are many reasons that Nissan picked the current chemistry battery in the LEAF, and safety was a big one.

For reference, the batteries in my Rav4 and Tesla's have a GIGANTIC uptick in explosiveness.

Charles Whalen:

"LiMn2O4 is a safer chemistry [the LEAF battery - Tony] than LiFePO4. When they go into thermal runaway, LiMn2O4 reaches a peak combustion rate of 2.5C/min, while LiFePO4 reaches a peak combustion rate of 3.4C/min. Contrast those to the combustion rates of the batteries that Tesla uses -- in the Roadster, LiCoO2 reaches a peak combustion rate of 360C/min, and in the Model S, LiNi.8Co.15Al.05O2 reaches a peak combustion rate of 280C/min..."

"LiCoO2 and LiNi.8Co.15Al.05O2 are so unsafe -- the most volatile of all the lithium chemistries, by an order of magnitude of more than 100X (I gave the combustion rates above) over the two safest lithium chemistries, LiMn2O4 and LiFePO4 -- that no large, established automaker could afford to take that kind of risk, to use either of those two chemistries (LiCoO2 or LiNi.8Co.15Al.05O2) in a mass-market commercial EV. A large OEM like GM or Ford has just too much at stake and too much to lose to take a risk like that. Only a struggling small start-up like Tesla, which is an extremely risky venture to begin with, on the perilous edge of survival, can afford to take an enormous risk like that."
 
The Dreamliner has been a nightmare for Boeing. Being a local company, I hope they get over the problems quickly.

BTW, the batteries are made by GS Yuasa - whose batteries are in Mitsu i.
 
TonyWilliams said:
There are many reasons that Nissan picked the current chemistry battery in the LEAF, and safety was a big one.

For reference, the batteries in my Rav4 and Tesla's have a GIGANTIC uptick in explosiveness.

Charles Whalen:

"LiMn2O4 is a safer chemistry [the LEAF battery - Tony] than LiFePO4. When they go into thermal runaway, LiMn2O4 reaches a peak combustion rate of 2.5C/min, while LiFePO4 reaches a peak combustion rate of 3.4C/min. Contrast those to the combustion rates of the batteries that Tesla uses -- in the Roadster, LiCoO2 reaches a peak combustion rate of 360C/min, and in the Model S, LiNi.8Co.15Al.05O2 reaches a peak combustion rate of 280C/min..."

"LiCoO2 and LiNi.8Co.15Al.05O2 are so unsafe -- the most volatile of all the lithium chemistries, by an order of magnitude of more than 100X (I gave the combustion rates above) over the two safest lithium chemistries, LiMn2O4 and LiFePO4 -- that no large, established automaker could afford to take that kind of risk, to use either of those two chemistries (LiCoO2 or LiNi.8Co.15Al.05O2) in a mass-market commercial EV. A large OEM like GM or Ford has just too much at stake and too much to lose to take a risk like that. Only a struggling small start-up like Tesla, which is an extremely risky venture to begin with, on the perilous edge of survival, can afford to take an enormous risk like that."

Wow. I knew LiMn2O4 was safer, but I had not seen these numbers. They suggest that Tesla and RAV4 EV drivers have to put a lot of faith in the quality of Tesla's battery and temperature management system. Has its record with the Tesla Roadster been clean with respect to Li-ion fires?
 
And now you see why Tesla coddles the battery so carefully with an active thermal management system. It's not necessarily for battery longevity!
 
Exactly what are these batteries used for? To back up the power generation from the engines? That comes from bleed air? Or is it to start the APU?
 
http://www.gsyuasa-lp.com/aviation-lithium-batteries
GS Yuasa’s lithium ion cells were chosen for the Electrical Power Conversion System in Boeing’s next generation commercial airliner, the 787 Dreamliner. This contract is a historic first as it marks the first commercial aviation application of Li-ion technology anywhere in the world. Partnering with Thales Alenia for the battery system electronics and integration, GS Yuasa’s lithium ion cells will play a key role in on-board power, providing both Auxiliary Power Unit start and emergency power back-up capabilities.
http://www.s399157097.onlinehome.us/SpecSheets/LVP10-65.pdf
Technology
Lithium Cobalt Oxide cathode material: Provides the best combination of high reliability, high
energy storage,and long life.
 
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