Thoughts on ethanol-free gasoline?

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RegGuheert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
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Location
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A few months after we purchased our LEAF, I realized that our other vehicles typically just sit around, so we started filling two of them with ethanol-free gasoline only. I felt that pure gasoline would be less corrosive to the rubber parts of the engine and it would also likely absorb less water. I typically find I can purchase the ethanol-free fuel for only 3 to 5% more than "regular" gasoline. I suspected this would result in better fuel economy, thus eliminating any additional cost.

At this point, I have to conclude that the new plan is working out well for us. I recently achieved a record-high highway efficiency with our 2003 HCH of 56.0 MPG. I do not think I have previously ever exceeded 52 MPG in the entire life of the car. While a big part of this achievement was likely due to the hypermiling that I did on the trip, I credit pure gasoline as part of the reason for the result. Note that this was achieved with a 500-foot elevation rise on a highway with a posted speed limit of mostly 70 MPH with rain pouring down for about 1/3 of the drive in an 11.5 YO hybrid with 91,000 miles and a BMS which was reprogrammed in 2011 to reduce the SOC range used by the car.

So I'm interested in hearing others' experiences with ethanol-free gasoline in your ICEs and hybrids. Do you use it? How much extra does it cost? Do you think you get better fuel mileage? If so, how much better?

Also, does anyone have any links to good data on the performance of ethanol-free gasoline versus "regular" gasoline?

Finally, if you are wondering where to purchase ethanol-free gasoline, here is a link to a site which can help you find one: pure-gas.org.
 
Ethanol free gasoline (or at least low ethanol - 5% or less) is better on almost every front. It is inherently more stable long-term, is less corrosive, and has higher specific energy output. It is what we use in our boat and is carried by our marina fuel dock. Aircraft gasoline (100LL) also has no ethanol but does have a very slight amount of lead..
 
Thanks for the tip on where to purchase. I no longer use any gasoline, but I have passed the link along to friends. I didn't realize you could get ethanol free gasoline.
 
I've heard of this mythical Ethanol-free gas, but around here everything says "up to 10% ethanol" .. unless it's E85 (85% ethanol)

What do they replace the ethanol with? Is it the traditional MTBE gas blend or something different?
 
If I recall from a previous thread, from a purely "energy" standpoint E10 will give you a 3% hit in mpg. I see at least that much on my 2006 Prius, more like 5% IMO. Its probably different for newer cars that were calibrated to run on that crap.
 
Bicster said:
I've heard of this mythical Ethanol-free gas, but around here everything says "up to 10% ethanol" .. unless it's E85 (85% ethanol)

What do they replace the ethanol with? Is it the traditional MTBE gas blend or something different?
I think it's like aviation gas, you can accomplish the same thing without oxygenating agents by refining higher quality gasoline but it costs more.
 
There is no way you can engineer around since Ethanol (alcohol) simply has lees energy than gasoline, per volume...

keydiver said:
If I recall from a previous thread, from a purely "energy" standpoint E10 will give you a 3% hit in mpg. I see at least that much on my 2006 Prius, more like 5% IMO. Its probably different for newer cars that were calibrated to run on that crap.
 
TomT said:
There is no way you can engineer around since Ethanol (alcohol) simply has lees energy than gasoline, per volume...

keydiver said:
If I recall from a previous thread, from a purely "energy" standpoint E10 will give you a 3% hit in mpg. I see at least that much on my 2006 Prius, more like 5% IMO. Its probably different for newer cars that were calibrated to run on that crap.
Exactly!

Boy, I really do not want to get into a big green discussion here, but that corn ethonal business is a great big loser, in MHO. Brazil and sugar cane? They have nailed it.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Isn't a small amount (5%) required as an oxygenate in summer blend gas since MTBE was outlawed?
Good question. According to the EPA website:
The Clean Air Act requires use of oxygenated gasoline in areas where winter time carbon monoxide levels exceed federal air quality standards. Without oxygenated gasoline, carbon monoxide emissions from gasoline-fueled vehicles tend to increase in cold weather. Winter oxygenated gasoline programs are implemented by the states. The links below provide information about oxygenated gasoline, winter oxygenated gasoline areas, oxygenates (such as ethanol and MTBE), and health effects testing of oxygenates.
There are perhaps 100 stations offering ethanol-free gasoline listed in FL on the site I linked. However there is only a marina shown for Boca Raton.

I see only five stations listed in CA. It seems part of CARB requirements are for ethanol.

No problem getting it around here, but I do not know if it includes MTBE or some other oxygenate in the wintertime (or always).
 
The funny part is that it makes little difference on any modern car as the oxygen sensor ECM will simply enrichen the mixture to compensate and be right back where it started... It was originally conceived with older cars in mind that did not have closed loop systems... How many of those are left on the roads these days... Meanwhile, everyone is paying the price - literally and figuratively - for this idiocy with very minimal returns. Yes, there is still a very small improvement on modern cars but not nearly enough to warrant all the liabilities and downsides of Ethanol...

The Clean Air Act requires use of oxygenated gasoline in areas where winter time carbon monoxide levels exceed federal air quality standards. Without oxygenated gasoline, carbon monoxide emissions from gasoline-fueled vehicles tend to increase in cold weather. Winter oxygenated gasoline programs are implemented by the states. The links below provide information about oxygenated gasoline, winter oxygenated gasoline areas, oxygenates (such as ethanol and MTBE), and health effects testing of oxygenates.
 
TomT said:
The funny part is that it makes very little if any difference on any modern car as the oxygen sensor ECM will simply enrichen the mixture to compensate and be right back where it started... It was originally conceived with older cars in mind that did not have closed loop systems... How many of those are left on the roads these days... Meanwhile, everyone is paying the price - literally and figuratively - for this idiocy.

Oxygenated fuels tend to burn more completely, which is the whole point. You can have a perfect stoichiometric ratio but there's still no guarantee that the reaction will run to completion and leave no partially reacted residues, ie carbon monoxide or soot.

Catalytic converters can only do so much, and focus more on eliminating nitrogen oxides than anything else even though they are usually built to handle all three. So the use of oxygenated fueled is really neither funny nor stupid - Yes, oxygen sensors do adjust the mixture as a result, but that doesn't negate the purpose.

That said, I don't like Ethanol as a fuel or fuel additive, though, because it's made from food... the only kind of ethanol I fully support is the kind aged in oak casks.
=Smidge=
 
Not smart. Plain old gasoline gummed up with age and had water separation problems during storage long before ethanol mandates ever were created. In fact, ethanol gas may even be better because the water in the gas tank will not drop out, like regular gas, rusting the tank and lines. Anyone with a lawnmower knows this.

Manufacturers know perfectly well how to make seals that can take 10% ethanol without problems. The car will rust before anything else.

If you want to store a car long term, add a bottle of Stabil to the gas tank. That will be more than enough, even with regular ethanol gasoline in the tank.
 
Smidge204 said:
TomT said:
The funny part is that it makes very little if any difference on any modern car as the oxygen sensor ECM will simply enrichen the mixture to compensate and be right back where it started... It was originally conceived with older cars in mind that did not have closed loop systems... How many of those are left on the roads these days... Meanwhile, everyone is paying the price - literally and figuratively - for this idiocy.

Oxygenated fuels tend to burn more completely, which is the whole point. You can have a perfect stoichiometric ratio but there's still no guarantee that the reaction will run to completion and leave no partially reacted residues, ie carbon monoxide or soot.

Catalytic converters can only do so much, and focus more on eliminating nitrogen oxides than anything else even though they are usually built to handle all three. So the use of oxygenated fueled is really neither funny nor stupid - Yes, oxygen sensors do adjust the mixture as a result, but that doesn't negate the purpose.

That said, I don't like Ethanol as a fuel or fuel additive, though, because it's made from food... the only kind of ethanol I fully support is the kind aged in oak casks.
=Smidge=


Horse corn is not any food I would want to eat.... That's what they make ethanol out of. Feed corn no human could even consume... Rather, that feed corn diverted for ethanol would otherwise be fed to animals whose very existence actually worsens global warming and still very inefficiently produces food for humans... Plus, I think the leftover mush from corn processed to make ethanol is still fed to animals. So its not really 'wasted' anyway. It still eventually ends up as food in the form of hamburgers. Not that ethanol is a solution for every problem, but that's a discussion for another day.
 
hyperlexis said:
Horse corn is not any food I would want to eat...
The point being that it's using arable land and fresh water, as well as contributing to overuse of fertilizer and pesticides, and not that it's preventing food from reaching hungry mouths.

As a species we are producing more calories per person than at any point ever in human history. It's not about the food per se - we have plenty. It's the idea that we are wasting food growing resources on fuel.

Also, even if they use the mush as feed, the leftovers after fermentation are necessarily less nutritious than the raw stock. The yeast has nutritional needs, too!
=Smidge=
 
Smidge204 said:
hyperlexis said:
Horse corn is not any food I would want to eat...
The point being that it's using arable land and fresh water, as well as contributing to overuse of fertilizer and pesticides, and not that it's preventing food from reaching hungry mouths.

As a species we are producing more calories per person than at any point ever in human history. It's not about the food per se - we have plenty. It's the idea that we are wasting food growing resources on fuel.

Also, even if they use the mush as feed, the leftovers after fermentation are necessarily less nutritious than the raw stock. The yeast has nutritional needs, too!
=Smidge=


Well one could argue that because there is only so much arable land in the US suitable for growing feed corn, by using it more for ethanol, denying its availability to cattle ranchers and pig farms, etc., it drives up the cost of meat, decreases its consumption, and thus decreases the greenhouse gas emissions inherent from the meat industries, while concurrently improving the nation's health by lowering consumption! It would be great to see a study on these relationships and see if in fact that does occur.

It's sad that so few Americans actually eat more efficiently -- i.e., directly eat more vegetables, fruits and grains, at least for a greater percentage of their diet. I eat meat and I certainly do love to eat meat, however, it's bad for the planet when most Americans believe they have to have a burger or a steak for each and every meal in order to be well fed. The land would be exploited and the water pumped out regardless -- just take your pick why. It either goes to fatten up animals, or be used for ethanol. But regardless it's going to get used.

Plus this isn't even considering that if we don't use ethanol, which is renewable, we would be replacing it with oil. So its comparing which is a 'less bad' option.
 
hyperlexis said:
Plus this isn't even considering that if we don't use ethanol, which is renewable, we would be replacing it with oil.
Or biofuels from crops that don't need arable land, or renewable methane from any one of many sources, or...

dare I say it...

Electricity? :roll:
=Smidge=
 
hyperlexis said:
Not smart. Plain old gasoline gummed up with age and had water separation problems during storage long before ethanol mandates ever were created. In fact, ethanol gas may even be better because the water in the gas tank will not drop out, like regular gas, rusting the tank and lines. Anyone with a lawnmower knows this.

Manufacturers know perfectly well how to make seals that can take 10% ethanol without problems. The car will rust before anything else.

If you want to store a car long term, add a bottle of Stabil to the gas tank. That will be more than enough, even with regular ethanol gasoline in the tank.
All gasoline does over time absorb water. But to allege that Ethanol containing gasoline is better is completely wrong.
Most of the four cycle and two cycle small engine manufacturers recommend or require gasoline with No Ethanol, particularly the back-up generator manufacturers.
Now using Stabil is a good idea in all gasoline. I use it year round in all gasoline for my four cycle and two cycle lawn equipment.
I probably should start putting it in my ICE due to the reduced use when owning a LEAF.
But I have switched to using No Ethanol gasoline in the ICE, and plan to continue doing that as long as it is available. In Chattanooga, its cost is usually around 20 cents per gallon higher. With the higher energy content, depending on where gas price is, it really doesn't cost any more.
The mandate for Ethanol in gasoline is primarily a subsidy for corn growers. When it takes 85% of the energy in a gallon of Ethanol to make it from corn, it is a huge inefficient waste. And does very little to reduce oil imports. Ethanol does have a small positive benefit in oxygenating the fuel, but there are alternatives besides MTBE that are a better choice than Ethanol.
In some parts of the country No Ethanol gasoline is unfortunately getting hard to get. Was recently reported that distributors in North Dakota are discontinuing it. Although I could find it in Florida when I was there a couple years back, it was extremely expensive. Was sold as "marine" fuel, and was nearly $1.00 per gallon more. Apparently a case of charging what the market will bear.
I am certainly not against bio-fuels if they are cost effective and have a net positive benefit. Ethanol from switch grass, waste wood, algae, sewage sludge, etc. may become cost effective and become the smart thing to do. Unfortunately they haven't yet. But the huge production of Ethanol from corn has been nothing but a huge inefficient waste for the US economy. And efforts to mandate an increase in Ethanol to 15%, mainly because vehicle fuel efficiencies have improved and the corn growers need to maintain the demand for Ethanol from corn, are nothing less than shameful. :oops: :cry: :oops: :cry:
 
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