edatoakrun
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:52 am

Autopilot error leading to the latest fatality (apparently) replicated at a different location:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCF8tVqM3I
no condition is permanent

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jlv
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:36 pm

edatoakrun wrote:Autopilot error leading to the latest fatality (apparently) replicated at a different location:
Looks like it's flashing telling the driver to take over control... and they don't. Autopilot is a hands on system.
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:28 pm

jlv wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:Autopilot error leading to the latest fatality (apparently) replicated at a different location:
Looks like it's flashing telling the driver to take over control... and they don't. Autopilot is a hands on system.




Exactly, bottom line is hands are supposed to be on the wheel. the waring says you took them off the wheel. There was no error in this video.

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Nubo
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:59 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
jlv wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:Autopilot error leading to the latest fatality (apparently) replicated at a different location:
Looks like it's flashing telling the driver to take over control... and they don't. Autopilot is a hands on system.




Exactly, bottom line is hands are supposed to be on the wheel. the waring says you took them off the wheel. There was no error in this video.


The error lies in the Level3 premise.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

edatoakrun
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:36 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:... hands are supposed to be on the wheel. the waring (sic) says you took them off the wheel. There was no error in this video.


So you are stating TSLA's intended punishment for disobedience of the autopilot is death...?
no condition is permanent

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:49 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:... hands are supposed to be on the wheel. the waring (sic) says you took them off the wheel. There was no error in this video.


So you are stating TSLA's intended punishment for disobedience of the autopilot is death...?


What a ridiculous statement but expected. Clearly there are many factors involved here and lots of FUD and speculation. Besides your repeated Tesla trolling here it is also very curious that the family reportedly sated the driver had repeatedly complained about issues at that spot before with AP and he then uses the autopilot knowing this, and on top of that uses it as NOT intended and with his hands off the wheel further ignoring the second waring? What if the person fell asleep at the wheel? Clearly they were not paying attention to a "known" issue area as reported.

What happens if you let go of the wheel on Nissan Pro Pilot and don't grab the wheel again and crash? Would that be the intended consequence for disobedience? Would the Nissan take over and drive you to safety? Or do only Nissan's disclaimers and warnings apply to common sense driving. When I think out the other AP cases and circumstances for blame it raises many questions.

That video also means nothing and proves nothing about this situation. The logs do give many facts to the situation as they have in past cases.


From the manual:

Warning: Autosteer is a hands-on feature.
You must keep your hands on the steering
wheel at all times.

Warning: Autosteer is intended for use
only on highways and limited-access
roads with a fully attentive driver. When
using Autosteer, hold the steering wheel
and be mindful of road conditions
and
surrounding traffic. Do not use Autosteer
on city streets or in areas where bicyclists
or pedestrians may be present. Never
depend on Autosteer to determine an
appropriate driving path.
Always be
prepared to take immediate action.
Failure to follow these instructions could
cause serious property damage, injury or
death.


Also every time it is engaged it warns to have the hands on the wheel at all times.

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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:36 pm

Via ABG:
Tesla Model 3 Autopilot: The good, the bad, and the ugly
Real problems obscure some of the promise of a compelling system
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/02/tesla-model-3-autopilot-review-issues/

. . . Autopilot is assisted driving at best — a tool to help the human operator to drive better with less effort. In that capacity, Autopilot should be the safest, easiest tool to use it can possibly be. In this iteration, it fails. There's simply too much guesswork involved, and too little information accessible (i.e., in front of your face or better audio cues) to let you know what functions the car is currently performing.

Until the car can be fully relied upon to take over driving duties without interruption, it simply needs to provide more information more readily to the driver, and make its limitations crystal clear — and often.

To contrast, let's take a look at Cadillac's Super Cruise semi-autonomous system. It has its limitations, but there's a clear break where the car's duties end and the driver's begins. The sounds and flashing, colored lights on top of the steering wheel are almost impossible to ignore, and the warnings come early. Plus, the fact that the car actually monitors your attention with cameras pointed at your face is a huge difference here. We simply felt more aware of our surroundings, our duties and our vehicle's self-driving capabilities with Super Cruise than with Autopilot, despite the freedom to go hands-free. . . .

Software updates could provide solutions to a lot of the Model 3's Autopilot problems. Better audio cues and simpler, more intuitive controls (maybe move some of them to the thumbscrolls) would go a long way. But the problem still remains that there is no easily seen display in front of the driver. And there is no attention management system currently in place. The current hardware can't provide the former, and it's unclear if it can provide the latter. There is that one little camera by the rear-view mirror, but Tesla hasn't been forthright its uses or capabilities.

Regarding the usability of Autopilot in the Model 3, software can't fix the physical changes this car truly needs, chiefly a head-up display, if not an instrument panel. That would require a design refresh from Tesla. An aftermarket HUD could help, but it likely couldn't incorporate the visualization of Autopilot functions as well as a factory setup. But we ought to also consider that putting a "beta" system with a name that implies autonomy in an untrained customer's car is a questionable move. As it currently exists, approach Autopilot with caution. You are still the driver.

One of the problems and solutions discussed in the article, altering max. speed for ACC, has been changed with the latest update (10.5), so that it can now be done from the right scroll button instead of having to use the touchscreen, and I'd call that a much needed change.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:01 am

A change we all knew was on the way even though everyone freaked out before about it. There will be many changes over time all planned and anticipated yet people will rant that it's a bad design based on what they see now. There are a bunch of new features on the way. something that is actually possible on a car like this and inflexible on others.

edatoakrun
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:01 am

Another replication (?) of the recent autopilot failure, this one at the same location as the fatal crash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVJSjeHDvfY
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:59 pm

edatoakrun wrote:Another replication (?) of the recent autopilot failure, this one at the same location as the fatal crash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVJSjeHDvfY


Pretty clear why with the road painted like that. This is why you are supposed to have your hands on the wheel. You would really have to not be paying attention to hit that with that long approach and you should be aware based on proper use of the system. This shows the driver that crashed was not paying attention if the same event occurred and was also ignoring pre-warnings FAR in advance. You have to drive a LONG distance to get the warning beep on AP, so the driver ignored the first warning for some time, then ignored the second warning and then was not paying attention on the approach to that intersection.

You can also see the lane line continues dark and solid to the left and the separator line that is faded and broken, the entire transition is painted poorly and unsafely for drivers without AP, this would be unsafe for normal cars and drivers and even more so at night. Plus there is no barrier and the wall is not marked. That intersection is insanely dangerous at many levels. I see the next day they put a new barrier and marking in, one that was gone for a long time after the previous accident(s).

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