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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:42 pm

lorenfb wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:
GRA wrote:Introducing a car with controls which manifestly decrease the driver's ability to watch the road when you intend to reduce that later, rather than waiting to do it right from the beginning because you're worried about your income flow/public opinion, is exactly the same sort of money vs. risk to customer decision that GM made. GM would have re-designed the ignition for the next generation of car, but decided not to fix it as soon as they knew it was an issue.

How does this differ from Tesla, who knew it was an issue before they introduced the car in the first place? Was any extra wiring or hardware required to implement this? No. Or was Tesla so busy working on the design interface of the touch screen because of the high-tech gee whiz factor that they didn't have the personnel or the interest to take care of the basics, and said "we'll just put off this until later; the AP is intended to be on the wheel controls which is very functional; it's just a short term solution that will be on limited cars based on roll out, and only a few people will be put at risk. We are willing to have them take that risk."



Put at risk. Seriously. Have you spent much time driving one? What is your personal experience?


You're really Elon Musk, right? Sounds like a response he would make.


I just don't site nonsense from the internet. If I make a chart saying Tesla will be profitable by tomorrow you will post it saying it proves Elon is full of it. Stop acting like a bot and someone may listen to you for once. Have you taken a test drive yet? :lol:

GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:13 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
GRA wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:
The AP was always intended to be on the wheel controls which is very functional. Comparing this to GM and the ignition is nonsense. Because a feature implementation was delayed does not mean it was an afterthought or they were being cheap at the cost of safety. Most speculation here is just that and the system has a design goal. Unlike Nissan, Tesla knows what they can implement and they are not locked into the initial release, many non-Tesla owners don't understand this. Regardless this was a short term solution that would be on limited cars based on roll out. Unlike Nissan, if something was not ready one would have to wait many years to get the feature.

Introducing a car with controls which manifestly decrease the driver's ability to watch the road when you intend to reduce that later, rather than waiting to do it right from the beginning because you're worried about your income flow/public opinion, is exactly the same sort of money vs. risk to customer decision that GM made. GM would have re-designed the ignition for the next generation of car, but decided not to fix it as soon as they knew it was an issue.

How does this differ from Tesla, who knew it was an issue before they introduced the car in the first place? Was any extra wiring or hardware required to implement this? No. Or was Tesla so busy working on the design interface of the touch screen because of the high-tech gee whiz factor that they didn't have the personnel or the interest to take care of the basics, and said "we'll just put off this until later; the AP is intended to be on the wheel controls which is very functional; it's just a short term solution that will be on limited cars based on roll out, and only a few people will be put at risk. We are willing to have them take that risk."

Put at risk. Seriously. Have you spent much time driving one? What is your personal experience?

What's my personal experience got to do with it? Every car for the past 3 or 4 decades has put the cruise control set/adjust/cancel control in a position where the driver never has to remove their hands from the steering wheel or look away from the road to use it. Tesla has now done likewise.

Are you seriously suggesting that requiring a driver to do both doesn't increase the risk of accident? If so, why did Tesla add it, especially as "They always planned" to do so? Does it take a federal regulation to get Tesla to do this before releasing the car to the public? By your logic, it would be perfectly acceptable for Tesla to initially put the turn signals on the touchscreen as well, "because it was a short term solution that would be on limited cars based on roll out".
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:38 pm

To explain all the reasons why they did this would take two pages. Bottom line is it’s imokemented properly as it was intended . That was their intention and before the fix if you drove the car you would also know why it’s not s big deal. On top of that it may be changing even more.

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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:08 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:To explain all the reasons why they did this would take two pages. Bottom line is it’s imokemented properly as it was intended . That was their intention and before the fix if you drove the car you would also know why it’s not s big deal. On top of that it may be changing even more.

In other words, rather than giving overwhelming priority to the safety of their customers, their customer's passengers, and any other road users that might be impacted by the tech from the beginning, they opted to prioritize other factors to get the cars out the door. Which is exactly what I said they did, so thanks for the confirmation.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:02 pm

Via IEVS:
Tesla Told To Improve Autopilot, Release Claimed “World’s Safest” Data
https://insideevs.com/tesla-told-to-improve-autopilot-release-claimed-worlds-safest-data/

A poorly worded headline, as it's Consumer Reports calling for this, and they have no power to "Tell" Tesla to do anything, but it is entirely reasonable under false advertising laws to require them to provide proof. And it's no surprise that CU that CU's position is the same as mine when it comes to safety:

The Consumers Union (CU) group (a division of Consumer Reports) [Sic. Other way around] has called Tesla out for its Autopilot system, obviously due to the recent fatal Model X crash and related media coverage. Tesla has been asked to improve the system, as well as to release a new statement explaining its claims that Autopilot is the “world’s safest” system. The Union wants more public data supporting such claims. . . .

According to CU, Autopilot should limit its use to areas in which it can be used successfully*. It believes that the safety system is able to be activated when it’s not necessarily safe to use. Additionally, it’s concerned that Tesla’s “hands-on” warning isn’t enough. Director of Cars and Product Policy and Analysis for Consumers Union David Friedman explained:

    After another tragedy involving Autopilot, Tesla should commit to put safety first—and to stop using consumers as beta testers for unproven technology. While the results of the crash investigations will be critical to understanding all that contributed to this tragedy, previous NTSB findings already showed that Autopilot should do more to protect consumers. We see no excuse: Tesla should improve the safety of Autopilot without delay.

    Tesla markets itself as an innovator. It should not put lives at risk, damage its reputation, or risk the success of its systems—or driver assist technology as a whole—by failing to take steps that would better protect consumers’ safety. Further, the company should not make either specific or broad safety claims without providing the detailed data to back them up. They should show, not just tell, us how safe their system is.

    Instead of issuing a defensive Friday evening blog post or statements blaming the victim, Tesla should fix Autopilot’s design and be transparent about their safety claims. The company should publicly provide detailed data to demonstrate conditions for which its Autopilot system can safely operate. It should limit Autopilot’s operation only to those conditions, and have a far more effective system to sense, verify, and safely react when the human driver’s level of engagement in the driving task is insufficient or when the driver fails to react to warnings. If other companies can do it, Tesla should as well. Further, this would fulfill the NTSB recommendations made more than six months ago. . . .

Consumers Union’s recent article explains:

In addition, Consumers Union urged the U.S. Senate and NHTSA to take action in response to the NTSB’s September 2017 recommendations and require critical safeguards in vehicles with partially or conditionally automated driving technologies. The NTSB’s recommendations included that the Department of Transportation and NHTSA should develop and issue mandatory performance standards for these systems and ensure better collection of crash data. The NTSB also recommended that manufacturers should limit (and NHTSA should verify that they have limited) the use of automated driving systems to appropriate circumstances and develop systems to more effectively sense a human driver’s level of engagement and alert the driver when automated driving systems are in use and the driver is inattentive.

In short, AP should be limited in function and designed to operate like Cadillac's Supercruise.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:47 am

GRA wrote:In short, AP should be limited in function and designed to operate like Cadillac's Supercruise.

I hope it never gets gutted like that. I use AP as it was designed to be used: "Always keep your hands on the wheel / Be prepared to take over at any time". Don't look away. Don't use an orange to defeat the "are you holding the wheel" checks. It isn't self-driving, don't get a false sense of security about it.

Image

It's funny, but before CU turned on Tesla, they had a much different opinion about AP.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-ta ... autopilot/
'13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17) 30K miTesla S 75D (3/17) 17K mi
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GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:11 pm

jlv wrote:
GRA wrote:In short, AP should be limited in function and designed to operate like Cadillac's Supercruise.

I hope it never gets gutted like that. I use AP as it was designed to be used: "Always keep your hands on the wheel / Be prepared to take over at any time". Don't look away. Don't use an orange to defeat the "are you holding the wheel" checks. It isn't self-driving, don't get a false sense of security about it.

Great, now we just need to convince the rest of Tesla's customers to behave the same way, and as that's not going to happen, the correct way to deal with the issue is to prohibit its use in situations it isn't capable of handling. See the bolded quote below.

jlv wrote:It's funny, but before CU turned on Tesla, they had a much different opinion about AP.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-ta ... autopilot/

Which ignores why their opinion of AP changed. As they and others used it more they found out that it was allowed to do things it was incapable of doing safely. From July 14, 2016:
Tesla's Autopilot: Too Much Autonomy Too Soon
Consumer Reports calls for Tesla to disable hands-free operation until its system can be made safer
https://www.consumerreports.org/tesla/tesla-autopilot-too-much-autonomy-too-soon/

From September 12, 2017:
NTSB Puts Partial Blame on Tesla and Autopilot in Fatal Model S Crash
Safety board’s recommendations could prod automakers to lock out driver-assist features in certain situations
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/ntsb-puts-blame-tesla-autopilot-fatal-model-s-crash/

Tesla allowed the driver to use the system outside of the environment for which it was designed, and the system gave far too much leeway to the driver to divert his attention to something other than driving,” said Robert Sumwalt, the board's chairman. “The result was a collision that should not have happened.”

CR didn't "turn on" Tesla, as that implies some bias against the company as a whole. They altered their opinion of AP for very specific safety reasons. If AP only put its own users at risk that could be acceptable, provided they were given a full briefing on just what it could and couldn't do and then signed their lives away, and were also required to give the same briefing to any of their passengers and get their signatures as well. But that ignores the other road users who have given no such consent to be used as human guinea pigs (and potentially human crash-test dummies) for AP, such as the oncoming semi driver and any vehicles following him when the Model 3 in the Edmunds test darted across a double yellow line on an undivided, undulating highway. The driver corrected it before it could cross the other double yellow into the oncoming lane, but then they were specifically testing AP's capabilities and watching it like a hawk, rather than an owner out for a routine drive whose attention is more likely to wander.

It's unacceptable to use the public for beta tests where the penalty for failure isn't at most a "Blue Screen of Death," but potentially real death, and I can only hope that NHTSA will finally get off their ass and tighten the regs. Or, if Tesla's dumb enough to actually take the Walter Huang case to court instead of quietly settling with the family as they almost certainly did with Joshua Brown's, they'll get their heads handed to them with a large public settlement and all the negative PR that will follow, and have no choice but to change their policy.

It should be changed, regardless, because taking stupid risks like this may retard the development and deployment of AV as a whole, and that really would be a tragedy. What's needed is to proceed with AVs with all deliberate speed, not push immature tech out early and accept the death and injuries. Some of those will inevitably happen with AVs in any event, and keeping the public on board will be difficult enough despite any decrease in accident rates. Far more restrictive regulations will result than would be the case if Tesla (and any other company so inclined) were to act in a more responsible fashion on their own, as Cadillac and I believe most companies that are introducing various levels of autonomy have done.

As for me, I'll wait for true L4 capability before I'm willing to trust my life to any autonomous driving system, because the 'hand-off' from machine to human in an emergency is the most dangerous event of any semi-autonomous one.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:14 pm

jlv wrote:
GRA wrote:In short, AP should be limited in function and designed to operate like Cadillac's Supercruise.

I hope it never gets gutted like that. I use AP as it was designed to be used: "Always keep your hands on the wheel / Be prepared to take over at any time". Don't look away. Don't use an orange to defeat the "are you holding the wheel" checks. It isn't self-driving, don't get a false sense of security about it.


It's funny, but before CU turned on Tesla, they had a much different opinion about AP.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-ta ... autopilot/



Same here with tens of thousands of miles and never an issue or concern. I don't approach intersections without control of the car and certainly not if I know it could be or has been an issue. You can't prevent people from using bad judgment and no matter what, people will do stupid things and want to blame others. Seems every time someone drives their car into a house or fence it was Tesla's fault and they never touched the gas except when they floored it instead of hitting the brake. I think we need to have more strict driving tests, that would help quite a bit in the US because far too many people are not even competent to drive a car, I see it every day and it's not getting better.

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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:49 pm

EVDRIVER wrote: <snip>
Same here with tens of thousands of miles and never an issue or concern. I don't approach intersections without control of the car and certainly not if I know it could be or has been an issue. You can't prevent people from using bad judgment and no matter what, people will do stupid things and want to blame others. Seems every time someone drives their car into a house or fence it was Tesla's fault and they never touched the gas except when they floored it instead of hitting the brake. I think we need to have more strict driving tests, that would help quite a bit in the US because far too many people are not even competent to drive a car, I see it every day and it's not getting better.

We have at least one area of agreement. Our tests are lamentably easy, and getting dumber all the time. Many states have removed parallel parking from their test because so many people failed it, which is one reason so many cars are introducing auto parking: https://www.autoinsurancecenter.com/fewer-states-keep-parallel-parking-on-the-driving-test.htm

I'm far more worried about distracted drivers in cars, which is one reason I'm so worried by semi-autonomous systems (along with infotainment systems and touchscreen controls). They encourage you to let yourself to be distracted, by lulling you into a false sense of security because they work correctly most of the time.

The greatest danger isn't when autonomous systems work poorly or well virtually all the time - in the first case only idiots trust them, and in the second they're better than humans. Semi-autonomy is the worst of both worlds, as it does the routine stuff without trouble, but expects you to resume command and take the right action in emergencies despite the fact that you may be completely disengaged mentally and physically from the situation, not to mention out of practice. All peer-reviewed research has confirmed just how poorly humans cope in this situation, with numerous accidents (mainly commercial, because until now those have been the most heavily investigated) traceable to this cause. The Uber 'safety' driver in Arizona looking down at the cell phone* in his lap then looking up and freezing momentarily being a case in point, and Walter Huang's trusting AP not to drive into a fixed barrier was another. That he shouldn't have done so given that he'd apparently experienced problems there previously is true, but that won't and shouldn't protect Tesla from liability - after all, they themselves claimed that the system had worked correctly 85,000 times at that very interchange prior to this.

*I assume that's what he was doing; he certainly looked just like all the other people I see doing this and putting me at risk as I walk/ride around on my bike, which is why I want safe AVs to arrive ASAP.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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