GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:58 pm

pchilds wrote:Another driver not doing his job. You need to be prepared to take control.

The question is, why would Tesla release such immature software to the public in the first place? It appears that AP 2.0 in its current state will veer into the oncoming lane every time that there's a curve with a driveway or intersection on the convex side near the apex, so why is it even possible for lane keeping to be enabled in this situation?

Then there's the repeated driving on or slightly over the double yellow line even on roads with very small curves, the failure to identify curb cuts when approached at small acute angles, etc. Talk about legal liability, and it's clear that both of the drives in the videos were done with alert drivers who were specifically testing AP's capabilities, not the typical driver who wants to use AP for 'fatigue relief', and who can be expected to be paying much less attention. It appears that anyone who'd trust AP 2.0 at this time would soon be relieved from all fatigue, along with all other signs of life. Not surprising that the insurance companies are starting to take notice.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

pchilds
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:27 pm

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an Autopilot crash, where the driver was using the system properly. As soon as you design a better system, let us know, so we can test it out. :roll:
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GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:42 pm

pchilds wrote:To my knowledge, there hasn't been an Autopilot crash, where the driver was using the system properly. As soon as you design a better system, let us know, so we can test it out. :roll:

How about until Tesla (and all other car companies) design a system that can only be engaged in conditions which the company states it's able to handle, and then is willing to accept full liability for any accident while the car is driving autonomously? Until they're willing to do that, they simply shouldn't be putting the decision in the hands of consumers. But what you or I think is acceptable is moot; as I've said before, it will be decided in the courts if not by regulation. Or by the insurance companies, if more follow the Hartford's lead and refuse to write new policies for Teslas. I wonder what they'll do when existing customer's policies come up for renewal - cancel them, or institute a major premium increase?
Last edited by GRA on Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:53 pm

GRA wrote:
pchilds wrote: Or by the insurance companies, if more follow the Hartford's lead and refuse to write new policies for Teslas. I wonder what they'll do when existing customer's policies come up for renewal - cancel them, or institute a major premium increase?



With the Model 3 and other new Tesla's there will be a new solution to address this in the near future. Something not offered in the industry presently.

GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:02 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
GRA wrote:
pchilds wrote: Or by the insurance companies, if more follow the Hartford's lead and refuse to write new policies for Teslas. I wonder what they'll do when existing customer's policies come up for renewal - cancel them, or institute a major premium increase?

With the Model 3 and other new Tesla's there will be a new solution to address this in the near future. Something not offered in the industry presently.

Source?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

palmermd
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:59 pm

GRA wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:
GRA wrote:

With the Model 3 and other new Tesla's there will be a new solution to address this in the near future. Something not offered in the industry presently.

Source?

quarterly shareholder conference call meeting minutes.
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GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:22 pm

palmermd wrote:
GRA wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:With the Model 3 and other new Tesla's there will be a new solution to address this in the near future. Something not offered in the industry presently.

Source?

quarterly shareholder conference call meeting minutes.

Okay, so no details at all, just what, Elon making big claims? I'm trying to imagine what they could do (other than fixing A.P.) that would qualify. Self-insuring comes to mind, but the last thing they should be doing is taking on even more liability.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

palmermd
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:17 pm

GRA wrote:
palmermd wrote:
GRA wrote:Source?

quarterly shareholder conference call meeting minutes.

Okay, so no details at all, just what, Elon making big claims? I'm trying to imagine what they could do (other than fixing A.P.) that would qualify. Self-insuring comes to mind, but the last thing they should be doing is taking on even more liability.


http://seekingalpha.com/article/4048698 ... art=single



Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC

Thank you. Thank you. Just a follow-up. On insurance, if your cars prove to be as much as 90% safer than other cars on a per mile basis, as I think you've alluded as a reasonable target medium-term, and if insurance companies only offer your customers, say, like a piddling 5% discount versus a comparably priced car, would you consider offering a service or product like P&C insurance directly to Tesla owners from your own platform and your own stores? Thanks.

Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.

Jon, do you want to take that?

Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.

Hey, Adam, it's Jon. We're actually currently doing that. And we've been doing it quietly. But in Asia in particular, where we started this, now the majority of Tesla cars are sold with an insurance product that is customized to Tesla. It takes into account not only this autopilot safety features, but also the maintenance cost of the car. So, it's our vision in the future that we'll be able to offer a single price for the car, maintenance, and insurance, in a really compelling offering for the consumer. And we're currently doing that today.

Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.

Yes, and this is not to the exclusion of insurance providers, but I mean, if we find that insurance providers are not matching the insurance proportionate to the rest of the car then, if we need to, we will in-source (7:12) it, but I think we'll find that insurance providers do adjust the insurance costs proportionate to the risk of a Tesla.

Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.

That's true, that's true. We're doing this with insurance partners today.

Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.

Right.

Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC

Okay. Thanks a lot.
Michael

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GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:23 pm

palmermd wrote:
GRA wrote:<snip>
Okay, so no details at all, just what, Elon making big claims? I'm trying to imagine what they could do (other than fixing A.P.) that would qualify. Self-insuring comes to mind, but the last thing they should be doing is taking on even more liability.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/4048698 ... art=single

Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC

Thank you. Thank you. Just a follow-up. On insurance, if your cars prove to be as much as 90% safer than other cars on a per mile basis, as I think you've alluded as a reasonable target medium-term, and if insurance companies only offer your customers, say, like a piddling 5% discount versus a comparably priced car, would you consider offering a service or product like P&C insurance directly to Tesla owners from your own platform and your own stores? Thanks.

Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.

Jon, do you want to take that?

Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.

Hey, Adam, it's Jon. We're actually currently doing that. And we've been doing it quietly. But in Asia in particular, where we started this, now the majority of Tesla cars are sold with an insurance product that is customized to Tesla. It takes into account not only this autopilot safety features, but also the maintenance cost of the car. So, it's our vision in the future that we'll be able to offer a single price for the car, maintenance, and insurance, in a really compelling offering for the consumer. And we're currently doing that today.

Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.

Yes, and this is not to the exclusion of insurance providers, but I mean, if we find that insurance providers are not matching the insurance proportionate to the rest of the car then, if we need to, we will in-source (7:12) it, but I think we'll find that insurance providers do adjust the insurance costs proportionate to the risk of a Tesla.

Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.

That's true, that's true. We're doing this with insurance partners today.

Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.

Right.

Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC

Okay. Thanks a lot.

Thanks. Not a vote of confidence in A.P. from the insurance companies if they're not offering a discount but charging the same or more, or refusing to cover them altogether. They're a hell of a lot better at probabilistic risk assessment than Elon is - after all, that's their business, and what they depend on for their profits.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

lorenfb
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:52 pm

palmermd wrote:
GRA wrote:
palmermd wrote:quarterly shareholder conference call meeting minutes.

Okay, so no details at all, just what, Elon making big claims? I'm trying to imagine what they could do (other than fixing A.P.) that would qualify. Self-insuring comes to mind, but the last thing they should be doing is taking on even more liability.


http://seekingalpha.com/article/4048698 ... art=single



Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC

Thank you. Thank you. Just a follow-up. On insurance, if your cars prove to be as much as 90% safer than other cars on a per mile basis, as I think you've alluded as a reasonable target medium-term, and if insurance companies only offer your customers, say, like a piddling 5% discount versus a comparably priced car, would you consider offering a service or product like P&C insurance directly to Tesla owners from your own platform and your own stores? Thanks.

Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.

Jon, do you want to take that?

Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.

Hey, Adam, it's Jon. We're actually currently doing that. And we've been doing it quietly. But in Asia in particular, where we started this, now the majority of Tesla cars are sold with an insurance product that is customized to Tesla. It takes into account not only this autopilot safety features, but also the maintenance cost of the car. So, it's our vision in the future that we'll be able to offer a single price for the car, maintenance, and insurance, in a really compelling offering for the consumer. And we're currently doing that today.

Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.

Yes, and this is not to the exclusion of insurance providers, but I mean, if we find that insurance providers are not matching the insurance proportionate to the rest of the car then, if we need to, we will in-source (7:12) it, but I think we'll find that insurance providers do adjust the insurance costs proportionate to the risk of a Tesla.

Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.

That's true, that's true. We're doing this with insurance partners today.

Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.

Right.

Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC

Okay. Thanks a lot.


Awe yes, Adam Jonas & Morgan Stanley, "in bed with Tesla" and ready for the upcoming public offering and house
commissions. He'll need to start to "pump the stock", e.g. a near term forecast of $300, before the offering.
This time, though, Goldman Sachs has downgraded Tesla.

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