lorenfb
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:45 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
if you're watching out for red light runners in autopilot, then you're doing it wrong.

as for the lane misreading, that's why you're supposed to supervise autopilot.


Actually, the implication was that the new road hazard is now Teslas crossing over the double yellow line while using AP,
i.e. besides red light runners and texting drivers.

How incompetent are Tesla's AP system designers that they didn't simulate for the condition, i.e. fairly basic, that occurred?
What a total joke that is! Time for Tesla to get help from the Waymo designers or GM for AP.

Bottom line: How many other scenarios that haven't been simulated by Tesla's AP system designers will result in accidents?


Did you see the break in the double-yellow line? You know, where the intersection was? You know, a surface street?

That's called using autopilot where it's not meant to be used.


Control systems that affect lives have to foresee deadly scenarios AND prevent the user from being in that scenario.
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smkettner
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:26 pm

lorenfb wrote:Control systems that affect lives have to foresee deadly scenarios AND prevent the user from being in that scenario.

Do these systems need to be absolutely perfect or generally just twice as good as a human?
I honestly think the legal battle will be more difficult than the software.
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lorenfb
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:33 pm

Zythryn wrote: It has more issues under certain circumstances than others and is still a work in progress.


And that's a major software system design problem where lives are affected by a software evolution in the field after the initial
design was fully tested and evaluated prior to the initial sales of a product. Software updates should only be done to fix critical initial
design flaws and NOT for system enhancements. Consumer products like cell phones or PCs are not as likely to risk lives by
evolving a software system over time. It's likely that the safety issue previously posted up-thread had been fully simulated
and tested for, i.e. prevented from happening, but when the system software was modified some parameter could have changed
allowing the problematic and potentially deadly scenario to occur.

Remember, for software systems as used for AI in the Tesla AP, there're most likely a number of software groups involved
in basically independent efforts. Most who have been involved in software development understand that a simple tweak
in one area may result in another area of the system being compromised when a unique path, i.e. set of infrequent occurrences,
becomes active and results in a system failure, e.g. a life threatening accident. It's very likely that most all OEM automotive AP
efforts will finalize the system design, fully simulate all known possible scenarios, and fully field test the AP system prior to any
consumer sales. Only for major design flaws that risk lives or compromise the initial system design specification will the OEMs
resort to firmware updates. If the consumer isn't happy over time with the features of the original AP system when the vehicle
was purchased, then it's time for another vehicle, as is the case when any vehicle system/feature ages.
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Nubo
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:12 pm

smkettner wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Control systems that affect lives have to foresee deadly scenarios AND prevent the user from being in that scenario.

Do these systems need to be absolutely perfect or generally just twice as good as a human?
I honestly think the legal battle will be more difficult than the software.


When the manufacturer becomes the driver (i.e. full autonomy), they assume liability for accidents. And considering the deep-pockets phenomenon, the accident rate will need to be miniscule. Unless government steps in to indemnify them and screw the victims.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

lorenfb
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:41 am

Nubo wrote:When the manufacturer becomes the driver (i.e. full autonomy), they assume liability for accidents.


And we're far from that now, which is very problematic for road safety irrespective of liability.
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Zythryn
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:25 am

Longer trip today, about 110 miles round trip, mostly highway.
Autopilot on Nav worked very well, even through construction zones where the roads change from week to week.
Again, I was very impressed with how well it handled merging traffic.

Definately a big step forward, although we still have many steps to go.
Previous owner of Prius, Volt, Leaf & Model S
Current owner of Model 3
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Nubo
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:50 pm

lorenfb wrote:
Nubo wrote:When the manufacturer becomes the driver (i.e. full autonomy), they assume liability for accidents.


And we're far from that now, which is very problematic for road safety irrespective of liability.


I agree.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

GRA
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:16 pm

Via GCR:
Consumer Reports tests Tesla's Navigate on Autopilot
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119715_consumer-reports-tests-teslas-navigate-on-autopilot

. . . Consumer Reports owns several Teslas and downloaded the system to try it out and report on it.

The magazine's engineers found that the system does what it claims, but not as well perhaps as it should.

Most notably, when the navigation was set to go off an off-ramp and the Tesla encountered a slow truck in the right lane, it tried to pass the truck without enough room to return to the right lane and exit. Like a teenage driver, the car had to slow down again in the left lane, impeding traffic,to get back behind the dump truck and get off.

Other times, the car would cut off faster cars as it moved into the left lane to go around a slower vehicle, then wouldn't pull back into the original lane once it completed the pass. Tesla told Consumer Reports that in future updates the car will automatically return to the previous lane.

"Overall it works best in easy situations with minimal traffic,” says Consumer Reports director of auto testing Jake Fisher. “But as the traffic builds, it clearly displays the limitations of today's technology."

As it is, the system may preview what's coming with autonomous technology, and Tesla says it will improve the capabilities of the system as cars drive more miles on it and the company has a chance to collect more data.

In the meantime, on-ramp to off-ramp Navigate on Autopilot still doesn't constitute real self-driving, or even drive all that well.

Direct link to CR article:
Tesla's Navigate on Autopilot Shows the Promise and Problems of Self-Driving Cars
CR's testers were impressed by the technology, but found some concerning limitations
https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/tesla-navigate-on-autopilot-shows-promise-and-problems-of-self-driving-cars/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:50 pm

Via GCR:
Tesla fatal crash rate with Autopilot could still be no better than with human drivers
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119936_tesla-fatal-crash-rate-with-autopilot-still-no-better-than-with-human-drivers
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

cwerdna
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:18 pm

This made the local TV news recently.

CHP: Drunk driver slept while Tesla appeared to drive Hwy 101 on autopilot
https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Dr ... 435295.php

CHP: Tesla driver suspected of DUI may have had autopilot on
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/11/30/ ... opilot-on/

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