Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:33 pm

GRA wrote:
Durandal wrote:
GRA wrote:You want to talk about inaction? What are you or anyone else doing choosing to drive when you're that tired, putting other people at risk? You simply have no business being on the road. It's an exercise in irresponsibility, not an excuse for relying on an admittedly inadequate self-driving system to make up for your own poor decisions. You want to take effective action? Get the hell off the road and take a nap.

May I suggest you simply not get on the road? You're obviously too filled with rage, so go sit in time-out before you get back on the road. :lol:

As others have suggested, life. Unless you want to make the incredulous claim that you've immediately pulled off the side of the road EVERY SINGLE TIME you've felt drowsy, and you took a nap. If you do want to make that claim, I'll call you a liar. If you don't want to make that claim, then feel free to retract your prior high horse statement.

Nope, I didn't pull off the road the first time I felt drowsy while driving. It was summer 1987, I'd been driving over a decade, and I'd spent a long hot day at the Castle Air Force Base air show (well into triple digit temps on the apron, limited shade). I was in my Dad's new Acura Legend because my Datsun 2000 didn't have AC, and went into micro-sleep while on the freeway coming back. Woke an instant later as I started to drift out of my lane, over-corrected (over-assisted power-steering with no feel) and felt the car start to lift off its inside wheels. Got it back under control without hurting anyone or myself, pulled off at the next exit and took a nap, something I've done ever since anytime I feel drowsy while driving. Most auto accidents involve one or more of the four D's: Drunk, Drugged, Drowsy or Distracted. Anyone's right to make stupid decisions ends when they endanger others who aren't voluntary participants in their stupidity. If you're going to be late, be late. Beats being referred to as 'the late' in a premature obituary, but far worse is if you hurt anyone else on your way out the Darwin Awards door. I can't imagine a parent voluntarily choosing to drive while drowsy so they can pick up their kids and put them at higher risk as well. Would anyone say that doing so while drunk is acceptable?

So yeah, I do have rage against people who engage in behavior they know to be dangerous and who knowingly put others at risk without their consent. I've engaged in lots of activities that have higher than average risk, and I'd strenuously object to any attempt by the government to prohibit me from choosing to do them. But the second I endanger others who haven't consented, the government has both the right and duty to stop me and impose a punishment for doing so. Maximizing personal rights also requires maximizing personal responsibility.



Great! So you admit to having gotten drowsy while driving too! That makes you a hypocrite.

I never said I was driving WHILE drowsy. I don't know when I've dozed off, until it happens. AFTER that, I have methods of dealing with it, which I'm sure most everyone else has as well. What kind of moron do you think we are to choose to start a drive, WHILE sleepy?!
I don't have the luxury of taking a nap before the drive, JUST-IN-CASE, because my level of fatigue and traffic conditions change daily. I don't go into my drive home half-asleep. I slog through ~1hr of traffic daily. Somewhere along the way, I may get tired, just like most other people, INCLUDING YOU it seems!

Would I like to live closer to shorten my commute? SURE, but that would put my wife at risk, since she works in the opposite side of home. We don't get always get to choose our circumstances.
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cwerdna
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road, and in the courts...

Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:54 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
Family of Tesla crash victim hires lawyers

The family of a man who died in a fiery Mountain View, Calif., crash involving a Tesla Inc. Model X on Autopilot has hired attorneys to “explore legal options,” a San Francisco law firm said Wednesday.

The family intends to file a wrongful-death lawsuit against Tesla TSLA, -1.97% , Minami Tamaki LLP said in a blog post. A preliminary review has uncovered other complaints by other Tesla drivers of “navigational errors” by Autopilot, Tesla’s suite of advanced driver-assistance systems, Minami Tamaki said.

“The firm believes Tesla’s Autopilot feature is defective and likely caused (Walter) Huang’s death, despite Tesla’s apparent attempt to blame the victim of this terrible tragedy,” the firm said. Huang is survived by a wife and two children, according to the law firm.

Autopilot “may have misread the lane lines on the roadway, failed to detect the concrete median, failed to brake the car, and drove the car into the median,” the firm said...

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/famil ... 2018-04-11

Tesla puts blame on driver in fatal autonomous car crash

Tesla Inc. defended its semiautonomous Autopilot system in the wake of a fatal crash last month, blaming the incident on the driver after his family hired a lawyer to explore legal options.

Walter Huang died on March 23 after the Model X sport-utility vehicle he was driving southbound on Highway 101 near Mountain View, Calif., collided with a barrier and was struck by two other vehicles. The auto maker a week later said that the SUV’s Autopilot was activated in the moments leading up to the crash and that the driver’s hands weren’t detected on the wheel for six seconds before the crash.

See also: Tesla stock is due for a 36% slide, says Goldman Sachs

On Wednesday, Tesla TSLA, -1.86% more explicitly assigned blame to the driver. “The crash happened on a clear day with several hundred feet of visibility ahead, which means that the only way for this accident to have occurred is if Mr. Huang wasn’t paying attention to the road, despite the car providing multiple warnings to do so,” a Tesla spokesman said in a statement...

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla ... 2018-04-12

TSLA's blame the driver line is wearing thin, as the fatalities pile up:

Tesla Criticized for Blaming Autopilot Death on Model X Driver

Consumer-safety advocates and autonomous-vehicle experts criticized Tesla Inc. for issuing another statement about the death of a customer that pinned the blame on driver inattentiveness.

Days after publishing a second blog post about the crash involving Walter Huang, a 38-year-old who died last month in his Model X, Tesla issued a statement in response to his family speaking with San Francisco television station ABC7. The company said the “only” explanation for the crash was “if Mr. Huang was not paying attention to the road, despite the car providing multiple warnings to do so.”

“I find it shocking,” Cathy Chase, president of the group Advocates for Highway and Auto Safety, said by phone. “They’re claiming that the only way for this accident to have occurred is for Mr. Huang to be not paying attention. Where do I start? That’s not the only way.”...

“Tesla explicitly uses data gathered from its vehicles to protect itself, even if it means going after its own customers,”...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... l-x-driver

edatoakrun wrote:Now that Tesla has confirmed that last week's fatal model X crash was due to autopilot error, this is probably the best thread to discuss the incident.

IMO, the biggest news is that Tesla has acknowledged that the Tesla left its lane, and proceeded toward the fatal encounter with the concrete lane divider, while under control of the AP.

AFAIK, as reported by TSLA, all previous autopilot crashes (at least all those with fatalities) occurred with undetected vehicles or objects in the vehicle's intended lane of travel.

Tesla says crashed vehicle had been on autopilot prior to accident

LOS GATOS, California (Reuters) - Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) said on Friday that a Tesla Model X involved a fatal crash in California last week had activated its Autopilot system, raising new questions about the semi-autonomous system that handles some driving tasks.

Tesla also said vehicle logs from the accident showed no action had been taken by the driver soon before the crash and that he had received earlier warnings to put his hands on the wheel.

“The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider with the crushed crash attenuator, but the vehicle logs show that no action was taken,” Tesla said.

The statement did not say why the Autopilot system apparently did not detect the concrete divider.

The fatal crash and vehicle fire of the Tesla near Mountain View, California, involved two other cars and delayed traffic for hours. The 38-year-old Tesla driver died at a nearby hospital shortly after the crash.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which launched an investigation into the crash earlier this week, did not immediately comment late Friday. The National Transportation Safety Board is also investigating the fatal crash.

Autopilot allows drivers to take their hands off the wheel for extended periods under certain conditions. Tesla requires users to agree to keep their hands on the wheel “at all times” before they can use autopilot, but users routinely tout the fact they can use the system to drive hands-free...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesl ... SKBN1H7023

TSLA's most recent account:

https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-last- ... s-accident

This made the local news tonight:
Tesla Sued by Family of Apple Engineer Who Died in Model X Crash on Hwy. 101 in Mountain View
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/T ... 97121.html

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LeftieBiker
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed May 01, 2019 12:02 am

This is going to come up over and over: is it realistic to expect typical affluent human beings to continuously watch the road while using an "autonomous" driving system?
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Nubo
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed May 01, 2019 12:41 am

LeftieBiker wrote:This is going to come up over and over: is it realistic to expect typical affluent human beings to continuously watch the road while using an "autonomous" driving system?


It depends on how "good" the not-fully-autonomous system is. The more capable it appears to handle driving, the greater the tendency for the human driver to become complacent.
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed May 01, 2019 12:55 am

Nubo wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:This is going to come up over and over: is it realistic to expect typical affluent human beings to continuously watch the road while using an "autonomous" driving system?


It depends on how "good" the not-fully-autonomous system is. The more capable it appears to handle driving, the greater the tendency for the human driver to become complacent.


Market competition will improve the systems enough to guarantee abuse and misunderstanding of them. Only inattention warnings (and not just ones based on steering behavior!) can stem those.
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cwerdna
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed May 01, 2019 10:36 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Nubo wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:This is going to come up over and over: is it realistic to expect typical affluent human beings to continuously watch the road while using an "autonomous" driving system?


It depends on how "good" the not-fully-autonomous system is. The more capable it appears to handle driving, the greater the tendency for the human driver to become complacent.


Market competition will improve the systems enough to guarantee abuse and misunderstanding of them. Only inattention warnings (and not just ones based on steering behavior!) can stem those.

Abuse already started happening with Tesla autopilot awhile ago, like with this guy: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ck.108331/. Here's his reaction to my comment: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-2559580. I'm rather annoyed there was actually 1 like to it. :roll:

It doesn't help that Elon when doing TV interviews showing autopilot doesn't have his hands on the wheel either, contradicting Tesla's explicit instructions in their videos and manuals.

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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed May 01, 2019 11:04 am

We had a similar poster here, albeit not as stupid and arrogant.
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed May 01, 2019 5:39 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
GRA wrote:
Durandal wrote:May I suggest you simply not get on the road? You're obviously too filled with rage, so go sit in time-out before you get back on the road. :lol:

As others have suggested, life. Unless you want to make the incredulous claim that you've immediately pulled off the side of the road EVERY SINGLE TIME you've felt drowsy, and you took a nap. If you do want to make that claim, I'll call you a liar. If you don't want to make that claim, then feel free to retract your prior high horse statement.

Nope, I didn't pull off the road the first time I felt drowsy while driving. It was summer 1987, I'd been driving over a decade, and I'd spent a long hot day at the Castle Air Force Base air show (well into triple digit temps on the apron, limited shade). I was in my Dad's new Acura Legend because my Datsun 2000 didn't have AC, and went into micro-sleep while on the freeway coming back. Woke an instant later as I started to drift out of my lane, over-corrected (over-assisted power-steering with no feel) and felt the car start to lift off its inside wheels. Got it back under control without hurting anyone or myself, pulled off at the next exit and took a nap, something I've done ever since anytime I feel drowsy while driving. Most auto accidents involve one or more of the four D's: Drunk, Drugged, Drowsy or Distracted. Anyone's right to make stupid decisions ends when they endanger others who aren't voluntary participants in their stupidity. If you're going to be late, be late. Beats being referred to as 'the late' in a premature obituary, but far worse is if you hurt anyone else on your way out the Darwin Awards door. I can't imagine a parent voluntarily choosing to drive while drowsy so they can pick up their kids and put them at higher risk as well. Would anyone say that doing so while drunk is acceptable?

So yeah, I do have rage against people who engage in behavior they know to be dangerous and who knowingly put others at risk without their consent. I've engaged in lots of activities that have higher than average risk, and I'd strenuously object to any attempt by the government to prohibit me from choosing to do them. But the second I endanger others who haven't consented, the government has both the right and duty to stop me and impose a punishment for doing so. Maximizing personal rights also requires maximizing personal responsibility.

Great! So you admit to having gotten drowsy while driving too! That makes you a hypocrite.

No, I'd be a hypocrite if, having avoided causing serious injury or death to myself as well as the innocent people in cars around me through my own stupid decision on that occasion over 30 years ago, I ignored the lesson and continued to repeat the same inexcusably reckless behavior, while berating others who also know better yet choose to do likewise. That would be hypocritical. As noted, I don't drive while drowsy or when in any condition where drowsiness is remotely possible. Offing myself through my own stupidity is my business, but injuring or killing others is unconscionable.

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:I never said I was driving WHILE drowsy. I don't know when I've dozed off, until it happens. AFTER that, I have methods of dealing with it, which I'm sure most everyone else has as well. What kind of moron do you think we are to choose to start a drive, WHILE sleepy?!

I don't have the luxury of taking a nap before the drive, JUST-IN-CASE, because my level of fatigue and traffic conditions change daily. I don't go into my drive home half-asleep. I slog through ~1hr of traffic daily. Somewhere along the way, I may get tired, just like most other people, INCLUDING YOU it seems!

I'm not a parent, but I was a scoutmaster for a dozen years, which meant I was often driving a carload of kids on trips. Tired is one thing, we're talking serious fatigue leading to drowsiness. If I went up to one of those parents at the start of a trip and said to them, "You know, I'm very tired, and there's a greater than zero chance that I could doze off while driving your son and the other scouts. Do you have a problem with that, or are you okay with me just continuing and hoping for the best?" I assume and can only hope that their response would be "Are you out of your mind?"

If you wouldn't want someone else driving your kids in that condition, why on earth would you think it's okay to do so yourself?

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Would I like to live closer to shorten my commute? SURE, but that would put my wife at risk, since she works in the opposite side of home. We don't get always get to choose our circumstances.

Of course not, but we can choose how we respond to them.
Last edited by GRA on Wed May 01, 2019 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road, and in the courts...

Wed May 01, 2019 5:46 pm

cwerdna wrote:This made the local news tonight:

Tesla Sued by Family of Apple Engineer Who Died in Model X Crash on Hwy. 101 in Mountain View
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/T ... 97121.html

I saw that last night, but thought that the trigger for filing the lawsuit would have been the NTSB releasing their final report, yet there's still nothing up on the NTSB website. It's been over a year, so they certainly should be finished. Granted, they've been busy with lots of other investigations.
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Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Wed May 01, 2019 9:14 pm

GRA wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
GRA wrote:Nope, I didn't pull off the road the first time I felt drowsy while driving. It was summer 1987, I'd been driving over a decade, and I'd spent a long hot day at the Castle Air Force Base air show (well into triple digit temps on the apron, limited shade). I was in my Dad's new Acura Legend because my Datsun 2000 didn't have AC, and went into micro-sleep while on the freeway coming back. Woke an instant later as I started to drift out of my lane, over-corrected (over-assisted power-steering with no feel) and felt the car start to lift off its inside wheels. Got it back under control without hurting anyone or myself, pulled off at the next exit and took a nap, something I've done ever since anytime I feel drowsy while driving. Most auto accidents involve one or more of the four D's: Drunk, Drugged, Drowsy or Distracted. Anyone's right to make stupid decisions ends when they endanger others who aren't voluntary participants in their stupidity. If you're going to be late, be late. Beats being referred to as 'the late' in a premature obituary, but far worse is if you hurt anyone else on your way out the Darwin Awards door. I can't imagine a parent voluntarily choosing to drive while drowsy so they can pick up their kids and put them at higher risk as well. Would anyone say that doing so while drunk is acceptable?

So yeah, I do have rage against people who engage in behavior they know to be dangerous and who knowingly put others at risk without their consent. I've engaged in lots of activities that have higher than average risk, and I'd strenuously object to any attempt by the government to prohibit me from choosing to do them. But the second I endanger others who haven't consented, the government has both the right and duty to stop me and impose a punishment for doing so. Maximizing personal rights also requires maximizing personal responsibility.

Great! So you admit to having gotten drowsy while driving too! That makes you a hypocrite.

No, I'd be a hypocrite if, having avoided causing serious injury or death to myself as well as the innocent people in cars around me through my own stupid decision on that occasion over 30 years ago, I ignored the lesson and continued to repeat the same inexcusably reckless behavior, while berating others who also know better yet choose to do likewise. That would be hypocritical. As noted, I don't drive while drowsy or when in any condition where drowsiness is remotely possible. Offing myself through my own stupidity is my business, but injuring or killing others is unconscionable.


... and yet, you do it. In case you missed it, you wrote," something I've done ever since anytime I feel drowsy while driving"

Note that you didn't start off drowsy and then took a nap. You got drowsy as the drive progressed and realized then that you needed a nap. Exactly what happens to all of us.

As for being a scoutmaster, I salute you for devoting time to other people's kids. Honestly. It takes commitment to do so.

But I would NEVER drive alone on long trips (multiple hours) with kids, there's ALWAYS a co-driver in each car. On short trips (under 30 minutes), I have never lost focus, because it's a short trip. HUGE FREAK'N DIFFERENCE when you're driving on your own in stop-n-go traffic for miles at a time.
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