SageBrush
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Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Second car, owning vs renting vs borrowing vs avoiding.

Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:03 pm

LeftieBiker wrote: Sagebrush slipped in ahead of my post. It appears we agree.

Sure -- a LEAF and a Prius Vagon are a very nice pair too. I decided to replace the Vagon with a Prime because most of our daily miles are not in the LEAF and the Prime is a pretty capable hauler for the the tasks I require. The exceptions are handled by a truck rental, although I'd be lying if I said I don't miss the Prius Vagon hitch. It was not used often, but it was *so* handy to have available. So far anyway, the hitch available for the Prime only allows limited towing via a 5/4 inch adapter.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

jjeff
Posts: 1415
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Second car, owning vs renting vs borrowing vs avoiding.

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:23 am

SageBrush wrote:So far anyway, the hitch available for the Prime only allows limited towing via a 5/4 inch adapter.

Hopefully someone will come out with a 2" receiver for the Prime, I mean if we can get one for our Leaf..... :lol:
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

SageBrush
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Second car, owning vs renting vs borrowing vs avoiding.

Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:35 am

jjeff wrote:
SageBrush wrote:So far anyway, the hitch available for the Prime only allows limited towing via a 5/4 inch adapter.

Hopefully someone will come out with a 2" receiver for the Prime, I mean if we can get one for our Leaf..... :lol:

Good news -- I found out the Curt has approved the 2016 Prius hitch for the Prime. The mount is a 2" ball and the car is rated for at least 1600 #. Installation is a bit of a chore because the bumper has to be removed. Curt says 90 minutes for DIY'ers but I figure longer for me ;-)
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

sub3marathonman
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:57 am
Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2012
Location: Bartow, FL

Re: Second car, owning vs renting vs borrowing vs avoiding.

Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:18 pm

IssacZachary wrote:
RonDawg wrote:
Since you don't mind older cars, perhaps a Chevy Astro? Large interior volume for passengers, can swallow a 4x8 sheet of plywood with the rear seats removed. AWD was an option, and would be useful where you live. It can even tow the Leaf if necessary.

Bad sides, besides mileage, are a bouncy ride and poor crash performance. Then again, if you're willing to put your family in a '72 Beetle, an Astro's crash test performance wouldn't be a concern for you.

Actually I traded in a Chevy Astro for the Leaf. It was a horrible vehicle. I spent 5,000 in parts and labor in one year and still had engine and transmission problems. I'm not making this up! However, I do have regrets getting rid of it. After all the work I and money I put into it I was probably close to getting all the bugs worked out of it. And even if I wasn't, at least it ran and was driveable. I think the one thing that turned me off was that I couldn't find a 5,000lb hitch for it. U-Haul wouldn't let me tow the Leaf on their dolly with the Astro without at least a 5,000lb hitch. I know they had made them before for the Astro, but finding one nowadays is impossible.


Those U-Haul guys, never willing to go for it. Now, here's a couple who knows how to have an adventure (and you have to read the story, they didn't settle for one measly 4X8 piece of plywood either):
http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/Workshop/Overload.htm

IssacZachary wrote:I'm married and have a family. If I were single, sure, I wouldn't mind freezing as I barely make it over treacherous mountain passes in freezing weather and perhaps even not make it and have to pull out a 2000W generator and sit on the side of the mountain pass for two or three hours in the middle of the night. But the wife doesn't think that that sounds like any fun.
(just had to add the bold!)

And what is with these women? I haven't specifically asked, but you know, I don't think my wife would think that sounds like fun either. :o

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IssacZachary
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Leaf Number: 420789
Location: Gunnison, CO, USA

Re: Second car, owning vs renting vs borrowing vs avoiding.

Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:05 pm

sub3marathonman wrote:Those U-Haul guys, never willing to go for it. Now, here's a couple who knows how to have an adventure (and you have to read the story, they didn't settle for one measly 4X8 piece of plywood either):
http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/Workshop/Overload.htm

I got excited when I noticed the 6,000lb reading on the hitch the Astro had. But the U-Haul wanted to know if that was "dead weight" or "load compensating". I went back and looked, and the dead weight rating was actually only 2,000lbs. There are 5,000lb dead weight hitches that were made for the Astro, but after trying to find one for about a year I have up. Now that I don't have the Astro more I've found one!
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Chevrolet/Astro/2001/37136.html?vehicleid=200149758
Now I really regret getting rid of the Astro! But it was a love and hate relationship anyway. Maybe it was for the better that I got rid of it.

I like your link. I once made two trips from Home Depot (70 miles away) just because I didn't want to haul more than what the max payload rating allowed.
sub3marathonman wrote:(just had to add the bold!)

And what is with these women? I haven't specifically asked, but you know, I don't think my wife would think that sounds like fun either. :o


I know right?! Husband says, "Honey! I got a solar panel and put it on a trailer. We can drive the Leaf anywhere and see the whole country! We can sell the house and live in a tent and work washing dishes a truck stops for food and insurance money! It'll be..."

Husband notices look on wife's face.

Husband- "Now would you like us to go look at minivans, or SUV's for your vehicle that you'll park in your own space in the garage."
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

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IssacZachary
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Re: Second car, owning vs renting vs borrowing vs avoiding.

Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:10 am

So I'm coming to a few conclusions here.

  • If you would hardly use a second vehicle then renting will likely be much cheaper, granted you have a car rental place close enough to where you live. This seems to fit me.
  • Another option would be stick with one car, but it wouldn't be a Leaf. A PHEV would let you do some or most of your driving off of electricity. But until prices come down and PHEV's get bigger it seems to me that you could still get more bang for buck by owning a used pure EV and renting or owning a used pure EV and some other cheap used ICEV.
  • Of course there's nothing wrong with owning another vehicle for those once-in-a-while occasions.
    • That vehicle could be a sports car or classic car that you're trying to keep in mint shape. Usually that's the kind of car someone would only use on a weekend trip anyway.
    • It could be a large fuel guzzler like a pickup, SUV or full/midsize van. It wouldn't have to be new either. The advantage of a cheap old truck or van is that you could do lots of things you can't do in the Leaf, including towing the Leaf. And since it would only be used on occasion the horrible fuel mileage wouldn't be much of a concern.
    • If you do drive long distances often then it makes more sense to get a fuel sipping ICE of some sort. But for me, I don't see the advantage. My Golf gets 50mpg and so I haven't put fuel in it since November. I could get 15mpg in it and wouldn't be spending very much more since I hardly use it.
  • However, if you have the kind of family that needs to use more than one car on a daily basis then you have to chose between an EV and an ICEV of some sort or two EV's. And if you own two EV's then your back in the same boat of either renting or borrowing or looking for that cheap other ICEV.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

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JimSouCal
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Re: Second car, owning vs renting vs borrowing vs avoiding.

Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:26 am

Insurance and registration adds mightily to the cost owning any second car... perhaps there is an offset benefit of the utility of having the vehicle on standby...

Any car rental has to likely include collision and liability insurance either from a primary policy, a credit card policy (some offer that when their card is used for payment). Love that grab and go of a car rental. Truck, passenger van, compact...or even a splurge on an exotic...

One option not mentioned is owning no car at all... Which is more and more common in urban areas...where hourly short term car rental and ride sharing is available.

sub3marathonman
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:57 am
Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2012
Location: Bartow, FL

Re: Second car, owning vs renting vs borrowing vs avoiding.

Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:03 pm

JimSouCal wrote:Insurance and registration adds mightily to the cost owning any second car...


And also depreciation, along with in general rising prices for vehicles.

Long ago I bought a 1985 Honda Rebel 250, with less than 1000 miles on it, for less than $800. I rode it for almost 20 years, pushing 100K miles with it. Only maintenance was oil changes, new tires, set the valves, and replace the chain/sprockets, and the spark plugs. I could do everything myself. It had the original clutch. :shock: The air cooled engine was never apart. In the beginning I could get over 100 mpg, towards the end it was in the low 50s, so it was needing a bit of care. I'll have to look, but I think I sold it for $400. So $400 for almost 20 years and almost 100K miles of driving.

(And no, no wife on the back "seat" of the Rebel. Anybody who has rode on the back "seat" of the Rebel will know what I mean.)

That motorcycle saved thousands and thousands of dollars, and to an extent was a key aspect of getting ahead when I was MUCH younger.

I worked at a lab, and the new girl came to me and said she wanted to save up, as she had heard I was doing. I told her, look at everybody here, what is the first thing they do? They buy a new car. So a few weeks later she drove up to the lab, in a new car. Another guy one time proudly announced that his credit card debt had dipped under $1K. I'm thinking, at 20% to 30% interest, you'll never get ahead.

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IssacZachary
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Re: Second car, owning vs renting vs borrowing vs avoiding.

Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:21 pm

When I was young I owned a bicycle, nothing more. I rode that bike until I got married. I even went to my fiancée's house on my bicycle to go on dates! She actually never had owned a car.

So I bought a Toyota pickup and got married. I do believe that the biggest waste of money we've had is on cars. Normally we spend good money on a used car with a lot of miles. Next thing you know it needs $7,000 in parts and labor. So we chuck that and get another one. Then the sane thing happens. I bought the Leaf to kind of put an end to that.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

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IssacZachary
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Re: Second car, owning vs renting vs borrowing vs avoiding.

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:01 pm

Planning ahead I'm trying first of all put long distance trip dates together. That way if I rent I might get more done with fewer days.

But in August I got to spend a week in Denver. I'll be taking along two family members, both women. One of them lives near Saguache, so that makes the trip about 300 miles one way. I'm trying to decide whether to take the Leaf or to rent.

  • Renting is going to cost a little over $300. But on top of that fuel prices. If the rental gets 30mpg that's 10 gallons one way. Say I use 10 gallons in Denver. That's 30 gallons, or about $90 in fuel.
  • To take the Leaf I'd need have a way of charging in Saguache which is 70 miles away. According to Plug Share there's a 240V Nema 50 plug which means I'll need at either upgrade my EVSE or get one with a proper plug which is going to cost slightly over $300. Then there's the there and back trips and two women to account for. Basically it's an hour and a half to Saguache. Charge for 4 hours. Ten minutes to the relative's home, about 50 minutes to Salida. Charge for 3 hours, then an hour or more to a camp ground (4hours) or hotel in Cañon City (15hours). Then an hour or so to Colorado Springs. Then hit a CHAdeMO (20-30minutes, Price?) Then drive an hour to the edge of Denver, hit another CHAdeMO and then have enough to get to the part of Denver we're headed. So in 18 or more hours I'll have made it. :|
  • The Bus is another option. About $100 in tickets for all three of us one way. Plus about $2, if I remember correctly, per trip on the city bus. I'm counting at least 16 trips, times 3 people, times $2 is $96. So around $300 on the buses.
  • Then there's owning a second car. I'm figuring I'll be spending about $900 to $1,000 this year in rentals. That's less than $100 per month. A second car costs me $40 per month in insurance. So maintenance, repairs, registration and depreciation must all come into about $50 per month to compete with rentals. Plus I have to consider that rentals are generally new, and a used car that only costs $600 in a year besides fuel and insurance is likely non-existent or very old.
  • I could also mention trading the Leaf in for something with an ICE but let's not go there.

So it can be definitely cheaper to just take the Leaf. But it would take a lot more time, and might lose its financial advantage if I end up staying at hotels.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

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