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Tell Congress: Keep the EV Tax Credit

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:35 pm
by TeamChargePoint
As new EV models come to market, automakers and drivers alike need to be able to count on policies that foster innovation and support a flourishing market. This is why we at ChargePoint support initiatives that protect American innovation, leadership, jobs, and help reduce emissions by increasing the adoption of electric vehicles.

We ask you to join us and other EV enthusiasts in signing this petition asking Congress to retain the EV tax credit.


You can read more from our CEO, and sign the petition, here: http://bit.ly/EVTaxCredit


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Re: Tell Congress: Keep the EV Tax Credit

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:00 pm
by LeftieBiker
The form needs to be fixed. It apparently reads the server location as the signer's home location and I don't see a way to change it. I live 25 miles from Delmar, NY. This is a great way to get Republicans crying "fraud!"

Re: Tell Congress: Keep the EV Tax Credit

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:36 am
by armmynissanleaf
I have been thinking a lot about this. Let's for a moment think out of the box. Are there any benefits for EV growth and development if the tax credit is really gone? May be more competition?

Re: Tell Congress: Keep the EV Tax Credit

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:31 pm
by jjeff
armmynissanleaf wrote:I have been thinking a lot about this. Let's for a moment think out of the box. Are there any benefits for EV growth and development if the tax credit is really gone? May be more competition?

This may not be a good comparison(and I'd be open to reasons why) but the first few years after analog TV was shut off and peoples old TV tuners became basically worthless, the government gave(if it was asked for) everyone 2?? or maybe 3 coupons for $40 each off a CECB(coupon eligible converter box). Most boxes of the time sold for ~$60 making them ~$20 after the coupon. The coupons had many restrictions on what features the boxes could have and what they had to have and manufactures tended to make any such boxes of the time adhere to to those coupons, one big no-no was a HDMI or even HD output, they were SD only and almost all boxes of the time were SD so you could use the coupon.
Fast forward a few years after the coupons expired and now you can purchase HD output converter boxes for <$30, with NO coupon! Selling a SD CECB for $60 now would be unheard of and no one would give it a second thought......
So in a way the $40 coupons enticed mfgs to dumb down their boxes and charge more than they were probably worth...
Again not saying the EV credit is doing this but unlike what some politicians say(the ones that like to give money to bushiness and the rich in hopes that it will trickle down.....) businesses very often DON'T do the right thing and only really care about their bottom line, and immediate bottom line at that.

Re: Tell Congress: Keep the EV Tax Credit

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:17 pm
by Nubo
jjeff wrote:
armmynissanleaf wrote:I have been thinking a lot about this. Let's for a moment think out of the box. Are there any benefits for EV growth and development if the tax credit is really gone? May be more competition?

This may not be a good comparison(and I'd be open to reasons why) but the first few years after analog TV was shut off and peoples old TV tuners became basically worthless, the government gave(if it was asked for) everyone 2?? or maybe 3 coupons for $40 each off a CECB(coupon eligible converter box). Most boxes of the time sold for ~$60 making them ~$20 after the coupon. The coupons had many restrictions on what features the boxes could have and what they had to have and manufactures tended to make any such boxes of the time adhere to to those coupons, one big no-no was a HDMI or even HD output, they were SD only and almost all boxes of the time were SD so you could use the coupon.
Fast forward a few years after the coupons expired and now you can purchase HD output converter boxes for <$30, with NO coupon! Selling a SD CECB for $60 now would be unheard of and no one would give it a second thought......
So in a way the $40 coupons enticed mfgs to dumb down their boxes and charge more than they were probably worth...
Again not saying the EV credit is doing this but unlike what some politicians say(the ones that like to give money to bushiness and the rich in hopes that it will trickle down.....) businesses very often DON'T do the right thing and only really care about their bottom line, and immediate bottom line at that.


Surely there's an element of truth to this. I recall the ridiculous installation prices for the orginal Aerovironment EVSE that were foisted upon early-adopters.

On the other hand, albeit not perfect, the purchase tax credits definitely helped create an initial market. The hope being that the products and market would become robust enough to become self-sustaining by the time the program ran its course. That's an objective of long-term change which is different from the TV adapters. In that case the intent was to stimulate creation of an immediate market to solve an acute short-term problem. Absent the incentives, would we have seen immediate supply of cheap boxes in sufficient quantity to meet the need? Probably not, imho. The price/demand/adoption curve usually doesn't work that way.

Re: Tell Congress: Keep the EV Tax Credit

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:49 pm
by LeftieBiker
The elimination of the tax credit will foster, for the foreseeable future, an EV market for the wealthy and upper Middle Class, with the working and retired-working classes largely shut out from leasing or buying a new EV. It will still be possible to get a used 40-60 mile range Leaf, but that isn't exactly an exciting prospect for most of us. This segmentation and isolation of the EV market is just what the Right Wing wants, but it will do no good whatsoever for the rest of us. I'm likely to have to choose between two cars I don't especially want (Bolt and 30kwh Leaf), in the next month, and I'm pretty damned pissed off about it, but I'm still one of the luckier ones because I can lease a new EV before the tax credit dies.

Re: Tell Congress: Keep the EV Tax Credit

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:57 am
by TeamChargePoint
LeftieBiker wrote:The form needs to be fixed. It apparently reads the server location as the signer's home location and I don't see a way to change it. I live 25 miles from Delmar, NY. This is a great way to get Republicans crying "fraud!"


The petition is hosted on Change.org so you'll want to head to the upper right corner where the profile image appears, and follow their prompts to set-up/edit your profile details on their website. :)

Re: Tell Congress: Keep the EV Tax Credit

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:54 pm
by jpadc
LeftieBiker wrote:This segmentation and isolation of the EV market is just what the Right Wing wants, but it will do no good whatsoever for the rest of us. I'm likely to have to choose between two cars I don't especially want (Bolt and 30kwh Leaf), in the next month, and I'm pretty damned pissed off about it, but I'm still one of the luckier ones because I can lease a new EV before the tax credit dies.

What I remember very clearly is that between 2001 and 2002 (because we were doing that then) was that the federal adoption tax increased from $5,000 to $10,000 and (unexpectedly) every adoption agency fee doubled on Jan 1 of 2002. Be it a view from the Right or Left, Government subsidies have a way of increasing the costs of things (FYI: as I've noted before on MNL.com, I am in the higher-ed industry and I have seen, both as faculty member and as a parent of a student in college, how "low-cost" government subsidized student loans have made college tuition soar well beyond the rate of inflation). I was never a fan of the $7500 tax credit, but I used it because it was there and it made the LEAF (especially one in another state that never sold) a very affordable option for me. But I certainly earn enough money that people who make far less than me should NOT be subsidizing my new car purchases (but that is exactly what happened and I'm honest enough with myself to know and own that). Even if you lease the car, then Nissan takes the subsidy, and they are still getting a higher price for the car than they would otherwise (i.e., its then a subsidy for a rich corporation). I don't doubt that there was some "good" that came out of the tax credit program, but I think (or at least I hope) that if the subsidies go away, electric vehicle prices will come down enough to keep them competitive with other vehicles.

I firmly believe that (at least in certain markets) an electric car is a better option for many people than a gas burring car (excluding places with possibly cold and extremely hot climates). So I believe the faster we can get real market forces in play (including the elimination of equally stupid subsidies on oil and ethanol) people will choose electric cars because they are actual better and cheaper to operate/maintain, the fast we can make real progress on reducing our reliance on fossil fuels (a point I hope we can agree on).

Re: Tell Congress: Keep the EV Tax Credit

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:00 pm
by LeftieBiker
TeamChargePoint wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:The form needs to be fixed. It apparently reads the server location as the signer's home location and I don't see a way to change it. I live 25 miles from Delmar, NY. This is a great way to get Republicans crying "fraud!"


The petition is hosted on Change.org so you'll want to head to the upper right corner where the profile image appears, and follow their prompts to set-up/edit your profile details on their website. :)


You can't expect every signer of a petition to set up a user profile just to make sure their location isn't wrong in the petition.

Re: Tell Congress: Keep the EV Tax Credit

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:03 pm
by LeftieBiker
I don't doubt that there was some "good" that came out of the tax credit program, but I think (or at least I hope) that if the subsidies go away, electric vehicle prices will come down enough to keep them competitive with other vehicles.

I firmly believe that (at least in certain markets) an electric car is a better option for many people than a gas burring car (excluding places with possibly cold and extremely hot climates). So I believe the faster we can get real market forces in play (including the elimination of equally stupid subsidies on oil and ethanol) people will choose electric cars because they are actual better and cheaper to operate/maintain, the fast we can make real progress on reducing our reliance on fossil fuels (a point I hope we can agree on).


Nothing I've observed about human behavior so far suggests that what you hope will happen will in fact happen. Beginning with an end to oil and gas subsides. But hey, if THAT happens, then you may be right about the rest.