Solar Purchase vs Lease

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csriram45

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2010
Messages
421
Location
SF Bay Area, CA
Hello all,

I live in Northern CA and I am considering going solar. I was looking for the same info as this thread as I am considering a Solar System installed at my home.

One of the main reason I am also considering going solar is because I am getting the LEAF which is going to increase my electricity usage by approx 300kWH and I wanted to see if I can invest in solar to offset the usage as well as take the benefits.

I have gotten quotes from a private installer, SolarCity and Real Goods Solar and I am trying to compare them.

Here is a quote from various providers.

SolarCity

System Size. 3.22KW DC System

SolarLease®
$0 Down Plan
Initial Solar Payment $0
Monthly Payment $88
Annual Increase 3.9 %
Over 20 Years:
First Year Cost
(Solar Energy) 22.2¢/kWh
Total Savings $24,897
Premium Service Package


SolarLease®
Initial Payment Plan
Initial Solar Payment $6,256
Monthly Payment $29
Annual Increase —
Over 20 Years:
Average Cost
(Solar Energy) 14.7¢/kWh
Total Savings $42,580
Premium Service Package


SolarLease®
Pre Pay Plan
Initial Solar Payment $9,389
Monthly Payment —
Annual Increase —
Over 20 Years:
Average Cost
(Solar Energy) 10.4¢/kWh
Total Savings $46,455
Premium Service Package


Purchase
You Own the System
System Cost $20,260
State Rebate – $944
Out Of Pocket Payment $19,316
Federal Tax Credit – $5,795
Net System Cost $13,521
Monthly Payment —
Annual Increase —
Over 30 Years:
Average Cost
(Solar Energy) 10.2¢/kWh
Total Savings $99,856
Standard Service Package



Quote 2 from Real Goods Solar for Purchase:
System Size: 2.035 kW DC, STC ($4.59/ DC watt)
System Size: 1.747 kW AC, CEC ($5.34/ AC watt)
PV Panels: Qty: 11 - Suntech Power Inc Model: STP185S-24/Adb+. 185W
Monocrystalline Module, Black Backsheet.
Inverter(s): Qty: 11 - Enphase Energy Model: M190-72-240-Sxx (-NA).
190 W, 32Vdc, 240Vac inverter, xx are connector types NA if North
American.

Gross System Cost $13,918 ($6.84/watt DC, $7.97/watt AC)
CA Expected Perf-Based Buydown (EPBB) Step 8 - ($586)
Installer Contract Cost - $13,332 ($6.55/watt DC, $7.63/watt AC)
Federal Tax Credit/Tax Impact - ($4,000)
Net Cost (year of installation) - $9,332 ($4.59/watt DC, $5.34/watt AC)

Quote 3 from Private installer:

Syetem Size: 2.82 STC KW PV System
Panels: 12 Schuco 235 MPE PSO4
Inverter: 1-SB4000US Inverter and integrated AC/DC Disconnect (SunnyBoy)
Gross System Cost: 22,128.94
CEC Incentive: - 832.00
Installer Discount - 35%
Total - 13,551.81
Federal Tax Incentive: - $4065.54
Customer Expected Cost: $9486.27

Internet Monitoring - $700 extra


My Average usage so far per month is around 600KWH and with my EV I assume another 300 KWH usage per month. I am trying to see what option would work out better.

Based on the system size it will not offset all my electricity usage and only offset my top tier usage. Can the experts here advice on what option would make the most sense?

The solar city quote involves 4 different choices. The first three are leases while the third is an outright purchase. The lease option comes with monitoring and other options like maintenance and inverter replacement while purchase would require me to do it. The delta in the outright pre-purchase of lease gives me the solar credit for federal right away compared to purchase in which I am paying a bit more as well.

One of the consideration for lease is also because my home is the new 3 stories kind of homes so going on top of my roof is going to be impossible for me and if I were to purchase and any service is required, I am quiet confident it can cost quiet a bit to get someone to just go there and look and fix.

The Real Goods Solar (I went through them as they are preffered installer by the 1BOG initiative) quote seems to be with micro inverters I believe. Any idea on how much extra that costs so I can compare them well? One of the issue is that comparing the 2 is becoming difficult because of the size of the system is different and the panels are different. Real Goods also has the SunRun Lease option which isnt as good as the SolarCity one. So far SolarCity quote amongst the 2 seems better and hence the question.

The third private quote seems the best price/watt perspetive, just not sure how the after sales support etc. would be and if needed for any warranty or other purpose how to go about it.

Any guidance on this is helpful.
 
I installed my system last fall. I went through 1BOG. The installer was groSolar (now bought over by SolarCity).

I did not do a thorough purchase versus lease analysis. Unlike your house, my house is single-story so I did not have your additional concerns about the height of the roof. Generally my feeling with leases is that either the interest rates are too high or there are some conditions that make it difficult for you if you need to move or sell the house -- but I could be totally off with these as my mind was set on a purchase.

To give you a comparison for the price, my system was installed using the standard SMA Sunnyboy inverter (not micro-inverters). The Sunnyboy is considered a very reliable inverter. I have 14 Canadian Solar panels (actually made in China), for a total of 3.22kW DC. The Canadian Solar panels have a spec rating that is like 230W -0%+5% instead of the more typical 230W -2%/+2% (can't recall the exact numbers now). Independent testing by a California institution (can't recall which one now) confirmed these numbers are correct.

The way the price was quoted was very simple : it was simply $5.24 per DC watt. So my gross system cost was 5.24 * 3220 = $16872.80. I would try to see if you can get the vendor to beat the price.

I did not opt to pay extra for internet monitoring, which typically requires an annual subscription fee. I simply bought a $200+ TED kit and installed it myself. As a bonus, I can now also monitor my home load usage besides the solar production.
 
I think your system is too small
if you can't afford more, at least set up all the conduit to be able to add later
 
I just visited the 1BOG website. Looks like prices have gone up quite a bit. Also the CA incentive has dropped compared to last year.
 
eMaS said:
I think your system is too small..
I disagree, no sense trying to offset all the way down through tiers 2 and 1 - they're cheap already and payback time would greatly increase.
 
I have no idea who or where eMaS is, but as csriram45 is in northern California (presumably PG&E) I strongly agree with Deane. Size it so that most of the time you don't go very far into tier 3. Remember, you don't have to stay out of tier 3 altogether. If your net use is 220% of baseline that is 10 kWh at tier 1/2 rates for every 1 kWh at tier 3 rates. Besides, I'm assuming you will go to a TOU schedule, and even with your relatively small system you could be selling power at peak rates on summer afternoons (if no one is at home), while you will be buying it at off-peak rates for the car. So I suggest you size it so your average net use is about twice your baseline.

Ray
 
Yes, for economic reasons, sized it to remove tiers 3 and higher (which is what I did).

Others, with perhaps money to spare, will attempt to size it to eliminate the entire usage for green reasons. The breakeven period for this will be much longer but you eliminated / offset the entire electrical footprint.

It all depends on the objective.

csriram45, you should consider studying the different rate schedules from PG&E, in particular the tiers available with E1, E6 & E9a. There is also quite a bit of discussion in the official PG&E thread.
 
Thank you everyone. Yes the issue with the size is because of my roof space. there is only so much roof space that they can put the panel on and with all the fire safety rules it takes away some more space. I would have liked to get a system that will keep me in Tier 1 and Tier 2 so seems like that would be possible with current system. So far I can see only get max of 3.3 Kw system.

The price has gone up and funny enough the price is not just $5.49/watt they then add other costs for Adders and Tiles etc which basically made it more expensive the quotes from Solar City and other installers... I think groSolar was better and Real Goods isn't really a right choice.

They would only give low efficiency panels for the price and then add the extra add ons. I was very disappointed with their quote and the way they handled it. Funny enough when they gave me a quote for the same system without 1BOG the delta was only $750 even though there was a groupon for $1100 which made no sense..
 
Don't know if this will help a lot but:

1. We took delivery of our LEAF March 8th. In urban driving we were able to get about 5 miles/kWh. We now have the LEAF up in the mountains and are getting more like 3.5 - 4.0 miles/kWh because of the higher speeds on rural roads and the amount of hills that we encounter.

2. We have a 6.7 kWh PV system and caculated about 4,000 kWh/yr. for our LEAF so your estimate of 300 kWh/mo. sounds reasonable. We think that we will do about 15,000 miles/yr. with the LEAF. Because we are driving with sunshine we use the LEAF exclusively so it will get more of the share of driving than when we had multiply ICEs. Now the ICEs stay on battery chargers and only are used when they are absolutely needed.

3. We went with 34 Sharp 235W panels with 190W Enphase microinverters. The panels and the inverters have worked flawlessly ever since they were turned on last June 2nd. This includes a low winter temperature of below 12 degrees below zero. Our system's gross cost was $6/watt. The utility reimbursed us $3/watt based on the information plate capacity. The system does peak at over 6.7 kW with a flat output once the inverter capacity is reached and we have found that the microinverters are putting out about 105% of rated capacity. The reason for the mismatch in inverters vs. panels is that Enphase had done some research and found that one could save money buy using a slightly smaller inverter and that the extra panel capacity causes the system to ramp up quicker than if 190W panels were used and of course utilities are reimbursing on panels, not inverters. If you'd like to take a look at our system you can see it on the web at: https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/xpWw4801.

4. I thought cleaning the panels was going to be an issue. Turns out it is not. Our roof pitch is a 6:12 pitch. Rain washes them well (with soft water) and when we've had snow, with the south facing orientation, the snow does not remain for more than a day or two.
 
ERG4ALL said:
Don't know if this will help a lot but:

1. We took delivery of our LEAF March 8th. In urban driving we were able to get about 5 miles/kWh. We now have the LEAF up in the mountains and are getting more like 3.5 - 4.0 miles/kWh because of the higher speeds on rural roads and the amount of hills that we encounter.

Hey Neighbor,

How's that LEAF handle in the snow?????? :lol:
 
ERG4ALL - Nice. THat seems great. Yeah even I think my Leaf will become the primary vehicle with the one ICE vehicle used by my wife to go to work etc. Weekends and near by drives will all be Leaf so my usage will be up there...

Keep the inputs coming and hopefully I will have something soon before the summer peak generation starts. Apparently it takes PGE 4 - 6 weeks to come and connect.

BTW, question for NorCal folks - My home has the smartmeter, Will that be enough or do I need PGE so switch the meter? Also those who have a Solar System what PGE rate schedule are u guys chosing? Are you guys switching to E9a with the Leaf?
What options does one have if they have Solar and EV?
 
PG&E will most likely swap out your meter. I know of a few people here are switching to E9a (myself included).

You can also look at E6.
 
There has been a lot of discussion of both those questions in the PG&E thread. The last I heard the PG&E back office wasn't set up to support smart meters running backward. If that is still true they will have to put in a digital, but non-smart, meter. You don't have to take the initiative on that; they will make the decision. Personally I am planning to stay on E6 for now, but there are also good arguments for going to either E9-a or E9-b depending on your situation. Presumably you could also use E1, but I doubt if that really makes sense.

Ray
 
csriram45 said:
Thank you everyone. Yes the issue with the size is because of my roof space. there is only so much roof space that they can put the panel on and with all the fire safety rules it takes away some more space. I would have liked to get a system that will keep me in Tier 1 and Tier 2 so seems like that would be possible with current system. So far I can see only get max of 3.3 Kw system.
If you have limited roof space, you might want to consider paying a bit more for a SunPower system. SunPower has 19% efficient panels while other panels are typically about 14-15% efficient or so.

That can add up to a lot more power - essentially you should be able to fit a 4 kW system on your roof instead of a 3.3 kW system. Also, if going w/Enphase, I'd recommend ~220 W panels, unless for some reason the 185 W panels are cheap enough to offset the additional cost of having more inverters. For example, 15 220W panels or 18 185W panels. So the bigger panels let you get away with 3 fewer inverters - which would cost about $500 or so. With 15 inverters you can also fit that all on 1 instead instead of 2, which should marginally reduce the price a bit depending on how long the run is back to your main panel.
 
Ok. The PGE changing meter is interesting. My Solar if I go with it might take 6 - 8 weeks or even more before PGE comes over to swap. In the interim my Leaf was to arrive last week. If I do get the Leaf I was planning on going to E9a. Can I switch to E9a and then again have PGE come do what they have to do because I got solar?

I wonder if PGE would cause an issue because I am asking them to change things again so close to each other?

As far as SunPower, I was looking into them as well. Have to figure out how much will those Panels work out to at the end. Will do that analysis as well. Appreciate the insight.

Thx
 
Here is another quote I got.

Gross System Cost $17,710 ($5.50/watt DC, $6.42/watt AC)
CA Expected Perf-Based Buydown (EPBB)
Step 8
($966)
Installer Contract Cost $16,744 ($5.20/watt DC, $6.07/watt AC)
Federal Tax Credit/Tax Impact ($5,023)
Net Cost (year of installation) $11,721 ($3.64/watt DC, $4.25/watt AC)
System Description
Total System Size 3.220 kW DC Power (STC) / 2.760 kW AC Power (CEC)
Estimated Annual Production 4,687 kWh
PV Panel Description 14 x ET Solar Industry, Ltd. Model: ET-P660230B
Inverters Qty. 14 - Enphase Energy Model: M190-72-240-S02


I am told that the ET Solar is the same as Canadian Solar panels and is quiet high energy. Can any one comment on it? How much more can SunPower panel produce over ET Solar or the Schuco.

Can people provide me the ranking of Panels in the order of Best to worse?

Thank you
 
Should not be an issue to switch the meter.

When you get the Leaf, you can request to switch to E9a. The last time I spoke to PG&E, Smartmeter is available for E9a without net metering.

When you add solar, you would want to switch to net metering. As of last week, Smartmeter is not available for such a configuration, and a separate meter fee mentioned in the rate sheets could be applicable.
 
Go to

http://www.gosolarcalifornia.org/equipment/pv_modules.php

to look at the test results.

Your California rebates would be based on the tested results (not the manufacturer's specs).
 
In terms of panels, one installer tells me that there is very little difference between the different brands -- these are sold like commodities (e.g. like PC ram).

The higher efficiency ones cost more but they occupy less roof space. You might have to consider very high efficiency ones if roof space is limited.

The Canadian Solars I have are CS6P-230PX. The spec says 230W, and measured is 211W, which is about 91.74%.

For the ET-P660230B you mentioned, spec says 230W but measured is 207.5W. This is 90.22%.

You can probably appreciate why I had picked the Canadian Solars over other panels, something I alluded to in an earlier post.
 
greenleaf said:
The Canadian Solars I have are CS6P-230PX. The spec says 230W, and measured is 211W, which is about 91.74%.
For the ET-P660230B you mentioned, spec says 230W but measured is 207.5W. This is 90.22%.
You're looking at the wrong percentage for efficiency. For all intents and purposes, those 2 panels are identical.

You need to look at power output per square meter. That's where SunPower panels have a major advantage over other panels with an efficiency of 19% compared to 14-15%. That will get you 30% more power per square meter. Yes - you will pay more for SunPower - but if you have limited roof space and you're paying top-tier electricity rates for PG&E - it's probably worth the premium.

Disclaimer: would have to look at system prices and the roof in question to make a more educated guess.

To the OP: Lease vs Buy? Not sure.

As far as buying - you're looking at too many numbers. Narrow it down to price per DC watt where you should be looking at appx $5-$6.50 / DC watt. Next look at the estimated annual output in kWh - make sure when comparing numbers they are not fudging efficiency numbers too much - you can double check by plugging in the numbers on the PVwatts website and CSI rebate calculator tool. Finally - make sure the total cost after incentives is similar - the only incentive here that varies is the CA incentive which is based on estimated output - so if all systems are similar in DC watt sizes, there should be no significant difference in the CA incentive. The CEC AC ratings don't tend to vary that much, but CSI rebate calculator tool takes those ratings into account (you can double check numbers from your sales quotes there, too).
 
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