Will be "Better Place" a better place for me?

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EdmondLeaf

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There is a lot of discussion about Better Placehttp://www.fool.com/investing/general/2012/02/25/the-1-company-to-bet-on-in-electric-cars.aspx, however I am quite sure I am already in better place right now. Most of my charge is at my home, my travel is well defined, and I am very comfortable with my Leaf. I still do not understand how their "cell phone model" battery purchase http://green.autoblog.com/2012/01/27/better-place-starts-renault-ev-deliveries-in-israel/ will be cheaper that outright buying like with the Leaf. As of "cell phone model" people are paying full price for phone upgrade with their bloated contracts, and on top of that cost of manufacturing phone is in the range of tens$ http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57382995-1/iphone-manufacturing-costs-revealed/ My position here is I do not want my old cell with new battery I want new cell phone with self healing paint in metallic green http://www.pcworld.com/article/248346/meet_nissans_selfhealing_scratch_shield_iphone_case.html. But in that case I expect paying full price for my metallic green, anyway I am anxiously awaiting battery switching centers popping in OK.
 
Different strokes, I guess. I don't want a new CAR, I want to be able to swap batteries, and to have the freedom of driving my car until it won't go any more. As it stands, I have to sweat a depleting battery that will wear out long before the rest of the car. With Better Place battery leasing, I could drive my LEAF for 10-20 years, possibly upgrading to a bigger or lighter battery as the tech improves and gets cheaper.
 
Well, the biggest (perhaps the only?) question mark about an electric car's long-term reliability is the battery. How will it hold up to years of use? How much will it cost to replace if or when it becomes necessary? What if a newer, better battery is developed?

The idea that you essentially rent a battery, rather than owning one, makes the Better Place model very attractive. The fact that you can "recharge" with a battery swap in under 2 minutes is icing on the cake.
=Smidge=
 
Fuel is near to $8 a gallon in Israel, plus its a tiny country.. perfect for electrics. Lets not even mention where they get their oil from.
 
First of USA is huge, 460 times bigger than Israel and 230 than Denmark. Maybe Better Place good solution there for now. If we all go electric, then there will be battery breakthrough, prices for EV will drop, range go way up. How Better Place will fit, cellphone is very much disposable item now?
 
I'll gladly admit I may be out of step...I greatly resent that cellphones are considered "disposable". I use them until they just won't work anymore...buying batteries if that's what they need, even if it isn't "economical". I simply refuse to be that wasteful. I could NEVER treat my car as disposable. I keep them until I can't stand them anymore.
 
My Nokia 6030 battery still working after 7 years of use. I should update my phone to take advantage of carwings and other apps for Leaf. In this case Better Place "cellphone business model" is complete failure. I always charged my phone at home or office and bought phone for small change. Total profit for Better Place = $0. Maybe I do not represent many EV owners, but I am OK with just good transportation type of EV, without bells and whistles, similar to my 6030 Nokia, therefore no changing battery ever. Charging at Better Place also won't be cheaper than at my home, and without driving to Better Place exchange battery/charging place that will be conveniently located 50 -100 miles form my home (population density). Next thing is EV manufacturers agreement to battery standard, so same battery will fit many cars, but this in not going so smoothly just by looking at charging standard. If my Leaf battery hold in similar fashion as my phone that is so obsolete that other laugh that I am still using it, than Better Place is not going to have my business.
 
Better Place shake up: Shai Agassi out as CEO, Evan Thornley steps in:
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/10/02/better-place-shake-up-shai-agassi-out-as-ceo-evan-thornley-ste/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Israeli electric car company CEO steps down:
http://news.yahoo.com/israeli-electric-car-company-ceo-steps-down-171457798--finance.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
The problem I've always seen with the Better Place model is that it's fine for fleets (taxis etc., maybe rental cars), but not so good for private vehicles until battery standardization between car manufacturers is achieved. The manufacturers can't even agree on the charging connectors, so it's unlikely that they will agree on battery chemistry, energy, form factor, voltage, current, weight and weight distribution, connectors, power controls etc. anytime soon. Even if you were to limit them to no more than 3-5 standard pack sizes, the costs would be far too high to be affordable with current or near-term battery prices.
 
GRA said:
The manufacturers can't even agree on the charging connectors, so it's unlikely that they will agree on battery chemistry, energy, form factor, voltage, current, weight and weight distribution, connectors, power controls etc. anytime soon.
And frankly, that is not likely to change since this is one of the main areas where manufacturers can differentiate their EV products from other companies' products. The competition to make the batteries better and cheaper has a long road ahead of it.
 
Given that the board just ousted Shai Agassi, I think I'd take a "wait and see" approach for now. As has already been mentioned, without significant industry standardization on the battery pack, I don't see it as a viable option. I also want to know where my battery's been. I don't want someone swapping in a pack that's spent the last 5 years in Phoenix. I might not make it around the block! ;)
 
ahagge said:
Given that the board just ousted Shai Agassi, I think I'd take a "wait and see" approach for now. As has already been mentioned, without significant industry standardization on the battery pack, I don't see it as a viable option. I also want to know where my battery's been. I don't want someone swapping in a pack that's spent the last 5 years in Phoenix. I might not make it around the block! ;)
I've read a couple of different statements on the latter issue. The first indicated that when taking a trip (out and back by the same route), you'd exchange your pack and they'd hold it in store for you when you returned. I don't really see this as feasible as it's too limiting and takes up valuable space. Of course, if you normally have a smaller pack for local driving and only use a bigger one when you go out of town, it could work if the swap station is local. See below for guaranteed capacity.

The second option, and one that makes more sense to me, is that you get a pack with a minimum guaranteed capacity whenever you exchange. Presumably they'd all be de-rated to this level when new, sequestering some of the battery capacity much as the Volt does. Since you wouldn't own the new pack, you wouldn't care where it had been or how it was used, just that it gave you the stated capacity.
 
ahagge said:
Given that the board just ousted Shai Agassi,...
And there's more...
Better Place Founder Shai Agassi Resigns From Board Amid Layoff Rumors:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2012/10/11/better-place-founder-shai-agassi-resigns-from-board-amid-layoff-rumors/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Great Idea but simply too far ahead of the times for anyone to realize it?

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2012/10/better-place.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Some indication of the essential flaw in any battery switching scheme is evident in the costs required by the San Francisco pilot Taxi program.

Looks like the pilot program will cost about $2 million per cab.

For the same amount of subsidies, California could probably install another ~100 DC quick-charge stations, effectively covering most of the major Freeway corridors of the State, and offering real utility to tens of thousands of BEV drivers.


On Wednesday, the California Energy Commission announced grants for a total of $20 million worth of clean energy transportation projects. One of those grants is going to a project proposed by Better Place. That project will demonstrate the company's switchable-battery, electric taxis with an electric taxicab fleet in the SF Bay Area that's due to launch next year. The project has a surprising subcontractor, Coda Automotive, that will be supplying the electric taxi's.

The project was originally announced in October 2010, and was to include battery swapping stations in San Francisco and San Jose to support taxi's traveling the corridor between those two cities. Taxi's were described at the time as "a high-mileage, high-visibility segment that can serve as the on-ramp for technology transfer to the mass-market."

However, the SF Bay Area project did not launch this year as originally announced. Better Place spokesperson John Proctor explained that issues arising during "pre-operational planning" delayed the start of the project. Public-private partnership agreements with San Francisco and San Jose were not signed until May 2012, for example. Other planning could not proceed until those agreements had been signed.

An SF Examiner report last week said the project had a $7 million grant available through the Metropolitan Transportation Commission who will manage the regional electric taxi system, that was said to comprise 61 taxi's in total. The grant announced on Wednesday adds another $3 million to the pot, and Proctor explained there was "significant private funds to be invested."

One major issue is a suitable vehicle for use in the U.S. for this project. Better Place has battery swapping operations running in Israel, Denmark and Amsterdam. Because the company is not a car manufacturer, its' strategy is to partner with automakers who provide compatible cars. The company's sole partner is Renault, but the Renault Fluence Z.E. is not available in the U.S.

The answer to this question is contained in a contract (#600-12-002) between the Bay Area Air Quality Management District and the California Energy Commission related to the grants announced this week. That contract describes the project scope, namely "BAAQMD will demonstrate zero-emission battery electric taxis with switchable batteries that give the vehicles essentially unlimited range within the area covered by the taxi company. This project will deploy two battery switch stations and 6 battery-switchable electric taxis." It's boasted this will be the "first North American eTaxi Corridor" which will offer "unlimited range for participating vehicles" that refill as quickly as a gasoline powered taxi. The goals include demonstrating the service will serve customers at the same rate as gasoline powered taxi's, with the same downtime, and a lack of range limitations within the corridor.

This amount, 6 taxi's, is a lot less than 61. Proctor explained that the project will be built in two phases, with the first phase comprising 6 taxi's.

The contract also included a surprise in the list of subcontractors: Coda Automotive. Coda's electric car is not designed to be compatible with the Better Place battery switching system. The other subcontractor, FEV Inc, will be re-engineering the Coda electric car to make it compatible with the Better Place system.

This raises a number of questions which Proctor would not answer, and queries to Coda Automotive's press office were not answered. At the first glance this could simply be a special deal between Coda and Better Place, with nothing further planned. Maybe it indicates Coda is mulling adoption of the Better Place battery switching system. This could be especially useful in 2014 when cars developed in partnership with Great Wall Motors begin world-wide distribution...

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/coda-and-better-place-working-electric-taxi-system-sf-bay-area" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
edatoakrun said:
Some indication of the essential flaw in any battery switching scheme is evident in the costs required by the San Francisco pilot Taxi program.

Looks like the pilot program will cost about $2 million per cab.

that sure seems like a bargain now does it!! especially when compared to Toyota's estimate back in 2007 of 25 Million for each Fuel Cell vehicle....what?? you say that cost has dropped? dropped how much?? WOW...

ya know, we could apply your reasoning to EVERY transportation project ever built.
now, if the ongoing costs of the program were 2 million per, ok. now if it costs another 20 million to add 10 more cabs, ok then, we got something to talk about and that would be a problem especially when each cab is probably expected to save no more than 10-20 cents per mile or about $200 a week (1000 miles a week) or $860 a month or $ a year or $10,000 a year or $50,000 during its lifetime or...

P.S. actual savings will probably be MUCH higher than my example
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
edatoakrun said:
Some indication of the essential flaw in any battery switching scheme is evident in the costs required by the San Francisco pilot Taxi program.

Looks like the pilot program will cost about $2 million per cab.

that sure seems like a bargain now does it!! especially when compared to Toyota's estimate back in 2007 of 25 Million for each Fuel Cell vehicle....what?? you say that cost has dropped? dropped how much?? WOW...

ya know, we could apply your reasoning to EVERY transportation project ever built.
now, if the ongoing costs of the program were 2 million per, ok. now if it costs another 20 million to add 10 more cabs, ok then, we got something to talk about and that would be a problem especially when each cab is probably expected to save no more than 10-20 cents per mile or about $200 a week (1000 miles a week) or $860 a month or $ a year or $10,000 a year or $50,000 during its lifetime or...

P.S. actual savings will probably be MUCH higher than my example

The example I have never seen, is how battery swap systems will ever be lower-cost than the re-charging alternative for BEVs, using fast charging during high demand day use, and slow charging off-peak overnight.

As for fuel cells, when and if they do drop in cost enough to make them competitive energy conversion devices, I expect the far better use will be in stationary locations, where the "waste" energy (heat) can be captured for space or water heating uses, while the electricity generation can be used to supply the grid, including grid-supplied recharging of BEVs as required.

The reality, IMO, is that we have a single likely model as an alternative to ICEs as vehicle traction motors. And that is BEVs recharged at the appropriate rate of charge and during appropriate grid demand conditions to maximize utility and economy, and to minimize the adverse environmental effects of vehicle use.

But America is doing a very poor job of developing the infrastructure to make use of this technology, due in part, to competing demands on public funds by proponents of far less promising technologies. The same millions of dollars required to build the six-vehicle pilot battery swap program, could but several hundred BEV taxis and their required charge stations on the streets of San Francisco, in the same amount of time.
 
edatoakrun said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
edatoakrun said:
Some indication of the essential flaw in any battery switching scheme is evident in the costs required by the San Francisco pilot Taxi program.

Looks like the pilot program will cost about $2 million per cab.

that sure seems like a bargain now does it!! especially when compared to Toyota's estimate back in 2007 of 25 Million for each Fuel Cell vehicle....what?? you say that cost has dropped? dropped how much?? WOW...

ya know, we could apply your reasoning to EVERY transportation project ever built.
now, if the ongoing costs of the program were 2 million per, ok. now if it costs another 20 million to add 10 more cabs, ok then, we got something to talk about and that would be a problem especially when each cab is probably expected to save no more than 10-20 cents per mile or about $200 a week (1000 miles a week) or $860 a month or $ a year or $10,000 a year or $50,000 during its lifetime or...

P.S. actual savings will probably be MUCH higher than my example

The example I have never seen, is how battery swap systems will ever be lower-cost than the re-charging alternative for BEVs, using fast charging during high demand day use, and slow charging off-peak overnight.

As for fuel cells, when and if they do drop in cost enough to make them competitive energy conversion devices, I expect the far better use will be in stationary locations, where the "waste" energy (heat) can be captured for space or water heating uses, while the electricity generation can be used to supply the grid, including grid-supplied recharging of BEVs as required.

The reality, IMO, is that we have a single likely model as an alternative to ICEs as vehicle traction motors. And that is BEVs recharged at the appropriate rate of charge and during appropriate grid demand conditions to maximize utility and economy, and to minimize the adverse environmental effects of vehicle use.

But America is doing a very poor job of developing the infrastructure to make use of this technology, due in part, to competing demands on public funds by proponents of far less promising technologies. The same millions of dollars required to build the six-vehicle pilot battery swap program, could but several hundred BEV taxis and their required charge stations on the streets of San Francisco, in the same amount of time.

i think we are ignoring the obvious here. in the grand scheme of things, it is not a stretch to imagine a near ZERO cost for electricity. solar, wind, etc. has huge infrastructure costs but after that its pretty small and no reason why BP or anyone else can implement this. so we are blinded by a media blitz financed by whoever shooting down EVERY energy alternative because of high start up costs

so ok, money is a problem so lets do what? go back to our "better" idea and continue to smoke away? after all its spend 5 minutes, fill it up and drive off which is a major desire of many so 30 minutes of DCFC wont work, and we only have to pay 10-30 cents a mile for the fuel...

what a deal? is that a deal?? BP addresses a segment of the potential EV market that no one else addresses and that includes fast charging. there is no other way around that fact.

and you are right. i would be VERY surprised to see fuel cell vehicles in anything other than very small niche markets. they are much better suited as power supplies for solar powered quick charge stations and the like
 
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