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Nubo
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 1:10 pm

DarthPuppy wrote:
Nubo wrote: As a cyclist who had to breathe the stuff, I never bought into the “clean diesel” bullshit.


Congrats on being ahead of the curve in realizing diesels weren't as clean as we were told.

Well I think a lot more people could have been, by direct experience. Some were obviously, enough to overcome bureaucratic inertia and vested interests to force the investigation.

As to the ban the question is how to best balance the concerns of all. Is it right to make some folks bear the hardship of not being able to take their diesels into city centers in order to mitigate health problems of others? That answer lies in details that I don’t have. My instincts run towards buyback, destroy, and compensate with the mfg bearing the burden and incarceration of those responsible for the deception.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 4:40 pm

I'm a biker also and yes, you can always tell when a diesel vehicle passes you on the highway. The human nose is an excellent sensor and quite sensitive to some things.

I did watch the Dirty Money/Hard Nox video. It was quite an eye-opener, especially since I used to own a diesel Passat wagon. I always like that car and appreciated the fact that it got 50 mpg when on long highway trips but the emissions stuff is pretty scary. Of course, any ICE car contributes pollution to the atmosphere but in different mixtures.

I didn't really dig the repeated references to Hitler and the ominous music that would start up every time the VW plant or a VW executive was on the screen. I think the facts speak loud enough for themselves without the additional 'artistic flourishes' added. Certainly worth a watch for anyone who cares about the air they breath.

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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 4:51 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:keep in mind that I've been suggesting manufacturer buybacks and payments. Banning diesels from urban areas isn't the same as confiscating the cars and laughing at the owners while denying them any compensation. That idea is largely of your own imagining.


Manufacturer buybacks and payments coupled with the ban is a solution I find very palatable. Getting these off the streets immediately with the burden on the car makers is a solution I can fully back.

My own imagining? I'm not aware of any required buybacks that would take these off the streets without burden to the owners. Did I miss something? If so, then I apologize.

The OP linked article just has the cars being banned. Nowhere in that article is any linkage to the manufacturer bearing the burden from this. Is there a settlement where the car companies are being responsible and providing the compensation so a ban isn't a burden on the car owners? Most of the news I've seen about settlements has lots of money going to governments, not so much to the victims (either those who made the mistake of buying a diesel or to those suffering health problems). Also, most of the news I've seen is about U.S. issues, not those in Germany. But I may have missed something since I'm not normally on this forum every day and I don't own a diesel so I'm not vested in staying on top of the diesel settlement saga.

However, I doubt such fully responsible settlements are in place. If so, then I would think these cars would already be off the road. Something seems to be missing.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 5:04 pm

goldbrick wrote:I'm a biker also and yes, you can always tell when a diesel vehicle passes you on the highway. The human nose is an excellent sensor and quite sensitive to some things.

I did watch the Dirty Money/Hard Nox video. It was quite an eye-opener, especially since I used to own a diesel Passat wagon. I always like that car and appreciated the fact that it got 50 mpg when on long highway trips but the emissions stuff is pretty scary. Of course, any ICE car contributes pollution to the atmosphere but in different mixtures.

I didn't really dig the repeated references to Hitler and the ominous music that would start up every time the VW plant or a VW executive was on the screen. I think the facts speak loud enough for themselves without the additional 'artistic flourishes' added. Certainly worth a watch for anyone who cares about the air they breath.


I will definitely look into watching that. I don't subscribe to Netflix, but know someone who does.

I too used to drive a 240D way back before much was known about the trouble we are in. Based on how much I liked that car and my interest in environmentalism, I almost bought a 2012 Jetta TDI. Fortunately, I went with the Leaf. But if my commute at the time was what it is now so the Leaf wan't a viable option, I would have gone with the Jetta (or Volt except I'm leary of GM after watching Who Killed the Electric Car) believing it was clean. So yes, I was almost in that sub group.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 5:18 pm

http://fortune.com/2018/02/06/volkswage ... penalties/

This article from February suggests that there hasn't been anything done for the diesel owners in Germany or elsewhere in Europe. It states that while VW is paying $15B in the US, they haven't paid a single Euro. It further states "Yet in Germany and Europe, it’s been a totally different story. There, VW has not offered compensation to any customer." And eventually it also includes "scores of consumer lawsuits have been tried in Germany and Volkswagen appears to be winning most of them".

The $15B for 580k diesels in the US equates to $43k per car. That is enough for them to buy back every single one, but I somehow doubt the settlement has that much money going to the car owners. I suspect most is going to the governments and lawyers.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 8:25 pm

VW didn't just spontaneously offer to buy cars in the US - they were forced to do it by the EPA. Until the EU gets after VW in a big, serious way, they will behave the same there as they are now. Here's the problem: VW is to them like GM is to us. They aren't an import brand, they are the Home Team, and one of the biggest employers as well. They also know exactly how to game the system. Nonetheless, expect to see them in court in the EU within two years.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 pm

Yes unfortunately VW has tremendous political clout over there. That is precisely why I'm convinced the ban will hit the consumer, not VW. Hence my concern with the ban unfairly hitting the wrong target. I'm all for replacing these cars, just with the correct party bearing the burden. And I think that little detail needs to be worked out sooner than later.

In the US with the $15B settlement addressing 580k cars, I'm much more open to banning these in our cities. But I doubt any place outside of west coast would seriously consider that. And with current Federal administration, that would be blocked. :(
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Thu May 24, 2018 7:06 pm

DarthPuppy wrote: I'm all for replacing these cars, just with the correct party bearing the burden. And I think that little detail needs to be worked out sooner than later.(

Let the two parties involved work it out: the car buyer and the manufacturer.
The government's job is to protect air quality.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Thu May 24, 2018 9:11 pm

SageBrush wrote:Let the two parties involved work it out: the car buyer and the manufacturer.
The government's job is to protect air quality.


No, the government's job is to protect victims. Unfortunately as noted in the article linked above, they (in the form of the German courts) aren't doing that part of the job, thus your first sentence is seriously flawed too. And now, they are doubling down on it by having city governments pass bans that further victimize victims rather than solve the problem in a fair fashion.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Thu May 24, 2018 9:53 pm

No, the government's job is to protect victims.


The government's job is to protect people and the environment as mandated. You keep spouting ideas that would make an average republican blush. Try subjecting this situation to a cost/benefit analysis (something that most liberals and leftists hate but the Right loves) Look up the actuarial value of a European life, and compare loss of 38,000 lives a year (multiplied by that value) to the value lost by the owners of diesel vehicles that can't be used in urban areas. You don't even have to assign extra weight to those lives because they are being taken away instead of just diminished. Your problem from word one is that you clearly think it's more important to save money than to save lives, despite your protestations to the contrary. Sure it's rather unfair that diesel owners will suffer a financial loss from these urban diesel bans. The people dying are suffering a hell of a lot more. We all agree that VW et al should be paying to make the diesel owners whole, but unlike you we are not willing to make that a prerequisite while people are actually dying from the "clean diesel" crime.
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