GRA
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Re: GCC: Nearly 60% of all vehicle trips in US in 2017 were less than six miles

Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:36 pm

Stanton wrote:I'll chime in...

PHEV's are just an extrapolation of ICE vehicles...and should be on their way out in a world of 200+ mile range BEVs.
I waited another 10 or so years to get my Leaf because the Prius was the "worst of both worlds" (and didn't do either one particularly well).

PHEVs will be on their way out once 200 (and especially 3 and 400) mile BEV prices improve. And the Prius was good at one thing, mpg, and mediocre to lousy at everything else (well, the 2nd+ gen have good utility).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: GCC: Nearly 60% of all vehicle trips in US in 2017 were less than six miles

Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:38 pm

The biggest problem with PHEV like the Toyota Prime is that consumers (at least in the US) do not like them.
They pencil out pretty well on paper but end up being bought for things like HOV access in the US or to avoid congestion charges in cities like London.

I owned a series of Prius and the Prime and think they are outstanding vehicles. Few people share my opinion.
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RegGuheert
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Re: GCC: Nearly 60% of all vehicle trips in US in 2017 were less than six miles

Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:01 am

GRA wrote:Well, let's see. The Volt has an 18.4 kWh battery, the Bolt has a 57kWh battery, and the Volt has a base MSRP of $33,220, the Bolt $36,620, or $3,400 more.
Only a very shallow view would allow one to think this is a reasonable comparison because both vehicles have "Chevy" badges on them. The fact is that Chevrolet makes the ICE drivetrain for the Volt in-house while it purchases the ENTIRE drivetrain for the Bolt from LG. You only have to look at the battery in the Tesla Model 3 to see where battery costs and material efficiency actually are today.

That's why I did the analysis using actual costs and did not compare costs to prices (what you did).
SageBrush wrote:I owned a series of Prius and the Prime and think they are outstanding vehicles. Few people share my opinion.
In fact, the Prius Prime is likely the one shining exception to my comparison because Toyota's Prius platform is so refined that the costs and efficiency of the Prime make it a very decent compromise between costs and all-electric driving range in a PHEV.
RegGuheert
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10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
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GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: GCC: Nearly 60% of all vehicle trips in US in 2017 were less than six miles

Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:03 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:Well, let's see. The Volt has an 18.4 kWh battery, the Bolt has a 57kWh battery, and the Volt has a base MSRP of $33,220, the Bolt $36,620, or $3,400 more.
Only a very shallow view would allow one to think this is a reasonable comparison because both vehicles have "Chevy" badges on them. The fact is that Chevrolet makes the ICE drivetrain for the Volt in-house while it purchases the ENTIRE drivetrain for the Bolt from LG. You only have to look at the battery in the Tesla Model 3 to see where battery costs and material efficiency actually are today.

That's why I did the analysis using actual costs and did not compare costs to prices (what you did).

The customers only care about price; how the costs are distributed isn't of any concern to them. You were the one who mentioned the Volt, so I just followed your lead; I couldn't care less that the Volt and Bolt both have Chevy badges, I was comparing the relative prices and benefits of the PHEV you mentioned to the only currently available, reasonably able to perform as sole car, semi-affordable BEV.

RegGuheert wrote:
SageBrush wrote:I owned a series of Prius and the Prime and think they are outstanding vehicles. Few people share my opinion.
In fact, the Prius Prime is likely the one shining exception to my comparison because Toyota's Prius platform is so refined that the costs and efficiency of the Prime make it a very decent compromise between costs and all-electric driving range in a PHEV.

Then the Ioniq with 29 miles AER @ a base MSRP of $24,950 ($11,670 under a base Bolt LT) is an even better compromise; the Ioniq BEV has a base MSRP of $29,500 with a 124 mile range, so the PHEV is $4,550 cheaper and able to be the sole car. Although Hyundai still needs to learn how to do handling, and the Prime does a better job of running on the battery only owing to its higher motor power.

Advertising is also necessary - I don't think I've ever seen a TV ad for the Ioniq PHEV, unlike say Honda's heavy ad campaign when the Clarity PHEV debuted, and even Toyota's ad campaign for the Mirai was more extensive than Hyundai's for the Ioniq. As for the Prime, Toyota already had a large legion of loyal Prius customers who'd be interested, and they still advertised it heavily.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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