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Nubo
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Re: Solo hybrid drivers in Ca. HOV lanes amplify congestion

Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:31 am

Slow1 wrote:As I see it - Original intent of HOV lanes was to reduce the number of cars on the road (put more people in each car, fewer cars) and as incentive for those doing this, they got a 'fast lane' through the worst areas. Rather seems to make sense to me - let folks helping to reduce congestion benefit right away from their efforts and perhaps that will get more to do it and reduce congestion (original objective eh?). ...


I believe the original intent was both for congestion AND pollution reduction, and I'd wager significantly more heavily weighted to emissions reduction. I've been here for over 20 years and the convenience of its citizens has never struck me to be high on the State's priority list :lol:

The stickers have been a highly effective means of jump-starting adoption of cleaner autos. And the effect/benefit of that extends far beyond the hour-by-hour emissions on a particular stretch of congested roadway. In the context of progress towards better overall air quality, I think the HOV stickers are very effective.

It's a balancing act, to be sure. If there are so many as to eliminate the benefit of access then their value as an incentive is eliminated as well. I'm sure they must be monitoring and well aware of these issues.
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GRA
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Re: Solo hybrid drivers in Ca. HOV lanes amplify congestion

Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:28 pm

cwerdna wrote:
alanlarson wrote:At one point in the last year, I was paying more attention to carpool lane use, and noticed that 1/4 to 1/3 of the vehicles in the carpool lane had only one person on board, and did not appear to be qualified in any way for single-occupant use of the lane.

Yep. CHP needs to crack down on that harder.

I also don't like the headlines of the articles. They're misleading, esp. who don't know what's going on w/the program or who don't understand the distinction between HEVs (hybrid electric vehicles) vs. PHEVs.

<snip>

The study was looking at the effect of those hybrids at the time, not current effects of PEVs. Doing the analysis does take time, but there's no reason to think that handing out green and white stickers will have a different effect; neither the color of the stickers or the means of propulsion has any effect on congestion, just the number of cars in the lane(s). The negative effects of allowing SO vehicles in HOV lanes are well known; this study just quantified the number for California.
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Re: Solo hybrid drivers in Ca. HOV lanes amplify congestion

Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:23 pm

HOV lanes have a self-conflicting logic.

1) Take away a lane from a congested highway.
2) Let 2+ occupancy vehicles use the lane. These cars will ONLY want to use this lane if traffic is congested.
3) Profit, all the double occupancy vehicles will cause a reduction in congestion. If HOV lanes succeed in reducing congestion they will eliminate their own incentive.

Raise gas taxes to European levels and people will be motivated to lose the hummers, carpool, and to live closer to their jobs. Use the tax money to build enough lanes for the actual traffic levels, not the traffic levels that you wish existed based on some fairy tale.
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GRA
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Re: Solo hybrid drivers in Ca. HOV lanes amplify congestion

Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:27 pm

Moof wrote:HOV lanes have a self-conflicting logic.

1) Take away a lane from a congested highway.
2) Let 2+ occupancy vehicles use the lane. These cars will ONLY want to use this lane if traffic is congested.
3) Profit, all the double occupancy vehicles will cause a reduction in congestion. If HOV lanes succeed in reducing congestion they will eliminate their own incentive.

Raise gas taxes to European levels and people will be motivated to lose the hummers, carpool, and to live closer to their jobs. Use the tax money to build enough lanes for the actual traffic levels, not the traffic levels that you wish existed based on some fairy tale.

You accurately point out that HOV lanes, when successful, encourage people to drive more (by reducing congestion). It's counter-intuitive, but congestion reduces pollution. Not because cars idling in stop-and-go traffic are efficient, they're not. It's because when driving is a pain, people are more likely to forgo a trip or combine it with another one, reducing VMT.

The answer to the HOV 'problem' is to continue to reduce the number of lanes that are non-HOV, to keep congestion at a near-constant level. Naturally, the public doesn't like this, even though most people by now have figured out that you can't build your way out of congestion; we tried that for 80+ years, and failed. As one study that looked at hundreds of projects showed, on average a 10% increase in lane miles causes an immediate 4% increase in VMT, with the entire new capacity eaten up within a few years. In many cases, by the time a new freeway project has opened, sprawl development based on the _prospect_ of that freeway means that it's already as congested as it was before it was built.

Anyway, when reducing freeway lanes you can either remove non-HOV lanes entirely, or convert the excess lanes for bus or rail transit; many freeway right of ways were originally rail right of ways, so putting high speed commuter rail in the medians makes sense (much as has been/is happening in the Bay Area with BART extensions over the past 30 years). And of course, the ultimate goal is to reduce VMT by eliminating the need (as well as the desire) to drive so much, through densification, walkable/bikeable mixed-use zoning and public transit.
Last edited by GRA on Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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thankyouOB
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Re: Solo hybrid drivers in Ca. HOV lanes amplify congestion

Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:35 pm

Nubo wrote:
I believe the original intent was both for congestion AND pollution reduction, and I'd wager significantly more heavily weighted to emissions reduction. I've been here for over 20 years and the convenience of its citizens has never struck me to be high on the State's priority list :lol:

The stickers have been a highly effective means of jump-starting adoption of cleaner autos. And the effect/benefit of that extends far beyond the hour-by-hour emissions on a particular stretch of congested roadway. In the context of progress towards better overall air quality, I think the HOV stickers are very effective.

It's a balancing act, to be sure. If there are so many as to eliminate the benefit of access then their value as an incentive is eliminated as well. I'm sure they must be monitoring and well aware of these issues.


Nubo gets it right. The original intent was about congestion and pollution. EVs speak directly to that.
What certainly DOESNT speak to that are the new HOT lanes where bucks-up folks pay so they can drive their single-occupancy ICE vehicles in the HOT lanes. that is really at odds with all equity and sense.

I also agree that there is not enough enforcement. I spend at least 10-12 hours a week commuting on LA freeways and I have NEVER seen CHP or any other police pull over a HOV or HOT lane violator. NEVER.
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Nubo
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Re: Solo hybrid drivers in Ca. HOV lanes amplify congestion

Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:49 pm

Moof wrote:HOV lanes have a self-conflicting logic.

1) Take away a lane from a congested highway. ...


As far as I know it doesn't work like that. In my experience, HOV lanes are added as new lanes to existing highways via construction, or designed-in with new highway construction. I haven't seen any instances where traffic lanes were taken away from a busy corridor. A politician would have to have some stainless-steel cajones to try such a stunt.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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Re: Solo hybrid drivers in Ca. HOV lanes amplify congestion

Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:21 pm

Nubo wrote:
Moof wrote:HOV lanes have a self-conflicting logic.

1) Take away a lane from a congested highway. ...


As far as I know it doesn't work like that. In my experience, HOV lanes are added as new lanes to existing highways via construction, or designed-in with new highway construction. I haven't seen any instances where traffic lanes were taken away from a busy corridor. A politician would have to have some stainless-steel cajones to try such a stunt.


100% right again.
though i suspect that some would argue those new lanes otherwise would be open to all.
however, in some cases those new lanes' funds include dedicated funds for pollution and congestion reduction.
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Re: Solo hybrid drivers in Ca. HOV lanes amplify congestion

Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:56 am

Nubo wrote:
Moof wrote:HOV lanes have a self-conflicting logic.

1) Take away a lane from a congested highway. ...


As far as I know it doesn't work like that. In my experience, HOV lanes are added as new lanes to existing highways via construction, or designed-in with new highway construction. I haven't seen any instances where traffic lanes were taken away from a busy corridor. A politician would have to have some stainless-steel cajones to try such a stunt.
Perhaps under the new "HOV" lane name, but carpool lanes were carved off of existing lanes when the were first created.

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Re: Solo hybrid drivers in Ca. HOV lanes amplify congestion

Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:20 pm

I saw a report on the news, they will be adding more Lexus lanes, they made $18 million in tolls last year. More traffic for the poor, more private lanes for the rich.
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Re: Solo hybrid drivers in Ca. HOV lanes amplify congestion

Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:36 pm

pchilds wrote:I saw a report on the news, they will be adding more Lexus lanes, they made $18 million in tolls last year. More traffic for the poor, more private lanes for the rich.


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