AndyH
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Re: IT IS 3 MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT

Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:43 pm

mbender wrote:I think it's fair to say that Ms. Klein is a partisan, but it's important to note that this "crisis=opportunity" thinking is embraced by both parties at the highest levels.

Exactly.

The point of the book/talk/documentary is that Klein shows the origin - from early shock treatment through real-world uses of techniques designed to 'soften' the public and make them more easily...guided...

Yes, it's about political power, profit, the media, and the public - and the government take-overs and other experiments designed to make attaining the former more efficient and effective.

edit... From the book:

That is how the shock doctrine works: the original disaster—the coup, the
terrorist attack, the market meltdown, the war, the tsunami, the hurricane —
puts the entire population into a state of collective shock. The falling
bombs, the bursts of terror, the pounding winds serve to soften up whole societies
much as the blaring music and blows in the torture cells soften up
prisoners. Like the terrorized prisoner who gives up the names of comrades
and renounces his faith, shocked societies often give up things they would
otherwise fiercely protect. Jamar Perry and his fellow evacuees at the Baton
Rouge shelter were supposed to give up their housing projects and public
schools. After the tsunami, the fishing people in Sri Lanka were supposed to
give up their valuable beachfront land to hoteliers. Iraqis, if all had gone according
to plan, were supposed to be so shocked and awed that they would
give up control of their oil reserves, their state companies and their sovereignty
to U.S. military bases and green zones.

The Shock Doctrine, P17

"...shocked societies often give up things they would otherwise fiercely protect." Like, maybe, the way American citizens gave-up large chunks of their civil rights via the so-called "Patriot Act" after 9/11...
Last edited by AndyH on Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IT IS 3 MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT

Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:25 pm

Saying that Klein is a partisan is misleading, in that she is not, IIRC, a capital-D Democrat. She is a progressive with a jaundiced view of both the large US parties.
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Re: IT IS 3 MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT

Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:16 pm

edatoakrun wrote:Why the clock was moved forward, does have useful absolute meaning.

The BAS now considers anthropomorphic climate change a greater risk than Nuclear proliferation.


That seems relative, by definition.
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Re: IT IS 3 MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT

Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:45 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Saying that Klein is a partisan is misleading, in that she is not, IIRC, a capital-D Democrat. She is a progressive with a jaundiced view of both the large US parties.
You're right, and perhaps "progressive" would have been a better word than 'partisan'. She is a journalist after all, and tries to be even-handed, objective and non-partisan in her broad social and economic critiques. But I think it's fair to say that she is left-of-center: she comes from a politically active family and that's part of why she is Canadian/was born in Canada in the first place. Exempli gratia :): I saw her speak in Berkeley and the crowd loved her; I doubt she'd receive as warm a welcome or applause (or even invitation) in a "red" venue!

And lest my pointing all of this out be mistaken for antipathy, absolutely not. I really like and respect her, and in no small part because her criticisms and analysis do transcend party lines! (If only more people understood that the real, and largest, "enemies of state" and life similarly transcend party lines, and actually benefit from all of the intramural bickering and back-and-forth... :-\ )
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Re: IT IS 3 MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT

Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:21 am

http://globalchallenges.org/wp-content/ ... port-1.pdf

The 12 Risks that threaten human civilisation, as ranked above, in the comprehensive 212 page report:

# 1

Extreme Climate Change

# 2

Nuclear War
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Re: IT IS 3 MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT

Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:52 am

edatoakrun wrote:The 12 Risks that threaten human civilisation, as ranked above, in the comprehensive 212 page report:

# 1

Extreme Climate Change

# 2

Nuclear War

Two rather different threats.
Nuclear war would be a crisis, but I'm not sure that the word crisis applies to climate change.

Crisis defined:

Full Definition of CRISIS
1
a : the turning point for better or worse in an acute disease or fever
b : a paroxysmal attack of pain, distress, or disordered function
c : an emotionally significant event or radical change of status in a person's life <a midlife crisis>
2
: the decisive moment (as in a literary plot)
3
a : an unstable or crucial time or state of affairs in which a decisive change is impending; especially : one with the distinct possibility of a highly undesirable outcome <a financial crisis>
b : a situation that has reached a critical phase <the environmental crisis>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crisis

Using definition #3a), mostly, I suggest that there may never be a decisive change in climate. It just might get warmer and warmer, and gradually people will either adapt or die.
There is a distinct possibility of a highly undesirable outcome, but there may never be a critical phase.

Crisis to me doesn't match a slow decay in livable climate, much as I don't think crisis describes a disease like type 2 diabetes. Or for that matter, a frog in a pot of water gradually being raised to a boil. There may not be a point when we can say "if we don't do something soon, bad things will happen soon". Instead, it just gets hotter and hotter.
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Re: IT IS 3 MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT

Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:10 pm

MOD NOTE: Some posts moved to snippiness.
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Re: IT IS 3 MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT

Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:10 pm

WetEV wrote:Nuclear war would be a crisis, but I'm not sure that the word crisis applies to climate change.

It's a crisis for the US Navy. Why? All of their bases are at sea level.

It's a crisis for the citizens of more than 13 towns and villages in Alaska that have been "living in fear" for many years already.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/interactive/2013/may/15/newtok-safer-ground-villagers-nervous

It's a crisis for any number of Pacific island countries.

It's a crisis for the worlds climate refugees. It's a crisis for the countries that can no longer grow enough food for their people.

And it's just the beginning - the very early hours.
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Re: IT IS 3 MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT

Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:15 pm

AndyH wrote:
WetEV wrote:Nuclear war would be a crisis, but I'm not sure that the word crisis applies to climate change.

It's a crisis for the US Navy. Why? All of their bases are at sea level.


Crisis in what way? Sea level rise at Norfolk is ~6 mm per year. Norfolk is a special case, flooding there is as much due to the meteor crater rubble compacting than the oceans rising due to warming, that is at ~3 mm per year. A problem, yes. But a crisis? I don't think so. In twenty years of so, the increase in sea level + the decrease in land level will almost equal the year to year variation caused by variations in the Gulf Stream. 5 inches. Can be a problem, yes, agree. But not a crisis.

http://woodshole.er.usgs.gov/epubs/boli ... dence.html

Look again at the definitions:

"a situation that has reached a critical phase"

Which exact mm of sea level rise is critical? And why?

"an unstable or crucial time or state of affairs in which a decisive change is impending; especially : one with the distinct possibility of a highly undesirable outcome"

At what exact level of sea level rise does a decisive change happen?

Seems to me that the Navy Base will become less useful over decades, with no decisive change in any given day, month, year, and decade. Crisis is the wrong word. A bad problem, yes, eventually will lead to abandonment of the facility, but that doesn't mean it is a crisis, or ever will become a crisis. Slow problems may not have a crisis, at least until it is far too late to do anything about it.

Humans can deal with crisis problems better than slow problems. Climate change is a slow problem.
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AndyH
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Re: IT IS 3 MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT

Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:00 pm

WetEV wrote:
AndyH wrote:
WetEV wrote:Nuclear war would be a crisis, but I'm not sure that the word crisis applies to climate change.

It's a crisis for the US Navy. Why? All of their bases are at sea level.


Crisis in what way? Sea level rise at Norfolk is ~6 mm per year.

You might want to learn a bit about the US Navy before typing. Norfolk is but a single base. Norfolk is NOT the US Navy.



In the past, sea level has risen a small amount each year. The rate of rise is increasing. How about four inches in two years?
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150224/ncomms7346/pdf/ncomms7346.pdf
The coastal sea levels along the Northeast Coast of North America show significant year-to-year fluctuations in a general upward trend. The analysis of long-term tide gauge records identified an extreme sea-level rise (SLR) event during 2009–10. Within this 2-year period, the coastal sea level north of New York City jumped by 128mm. This magnitude of interannual SLR is unprecedented (a 1-in-850 year event) during the entire history of the tide gauge records.


Additionally, the Navy is now responsible for a new 'northern ocean' that's opening up. Then there are the climate-change fueled famines, storms, and floods that they (and the rest of our military) respond(s) to. Every single one of the situations we responded to during the nine-years I was stationed at the HQ US Transportation Command (USAF, USA, USN, Coast Guard, Reserves, and national agencies) was by definition a crisis - and in spite of the wars in Bosnia and Iraq, more than 50% of our work was taking care of people affected by climate related crises.


Pretend this is your house, Wet - crisis or not?
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It's a crisis that's continuing to get worse and is taking more lives because too many otherwise intelligent "first-world" people are wasting their time fighting rather than solving the problem. :x
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