GRA
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Re: Advanced nuclear reactors as part of a low carbon future

Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:50 pm

AndyH wrote:When we establish the bounds for "acceptable losses" from power generation, is it best to focus only on mortality rates? Or should quality of life or injury be part of the mix? <snip>
Of course it should, and please compare those rates to other sources of power, e.g. to the numbers of miners suffering from black lung (to give it its full name, Pneumono-ultramicroscopic-silico-volcano-coniosis), or the health effects of mercury exposure etc. from coal extraction, use and waste.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

AndyH
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Re: Advanced nuclear reactors as part of a low carbon future

Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:52 pm

GRA wrote:
AndyH wrote:When we establish the bounds for "acceptable losses" from power generation, is it best to focus only on mortality rates? Or should quality of life or injury be part of the mix? <snip>
Of course it should, and please compare those rates to other sources of power, e.g. to the numbers of miners suffering from black lung (to give it its full name, Pneumono-ultramicroscopic-silico-volcano-coniosis), or the health effects of mercury exposure etc. from coal extraction, use and waste.

I have - and suggested as such near the bottom of the post you quoted from. ;) I've also looked at death and injury rates from solar installers falling off buildings. "Some of these things are not like the others," says Grover. :lol:
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AndyH
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Re: Advanced nuclear reactors as part of a low carbon future

Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:01 pm

"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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AndyH
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Re: Advanced nuclear reactors as part of a low carbon future

Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:18 am

http://www.peakprosperity.com/podcast/79398/kirk-sorensen-detailed-exploration-thoriums-potential-energy-source
http://www.peakprosperity.com/podcast/86787/kirk-sorensen-update-thorium-story

Kirk Sorensen is a founder of Flibe Energy and currently serves as President and Chief Technical Officer. Kirk has been a public advocate for thorium energy and liquid-fluoride thorium reactor (LFTR) technology for many years. He founded the weblog “Energy From Thorium” which has been the platform for the international grassroots effort to revive research and development of fluoride-based reactors. Prior to founding Flibe Energy, he served as Chief Nuclear Technologist at Teledyne Brown Engineering and with their support has pushed advance consideration of thorium. Previous to that, Kirk worked for ten years at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center spending the last two of those years on assignment to the US Army Space and Missile Defense Command. Kirk has briefed many senior military and civilian decision makers on LFTR technology and its compelling advantages, including its potential use in portable modular reactors for the US military.




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GRA
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Re: Advanced nuclear reactors as part of a low carbon future

Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:58 pm

Yes, China has probably the 2nd or third largest thorium reserves in the world, exceeded only by India and/or Australia. OTOH, their Uranium reserves are quite small, and they import the majority of it from Australia, Kazakhstan?, Russia and some other country I forget. India's also working on thorium reactors see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%27s_ ... _programme
Last edited by GRA on Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

johnrhansen
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Re: Advanced nuclear reactors as part of a low carbon future

Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:26 pm

Something else that needs to be invented in parallel is local energy storage schemes. It would take such a load off of power generators if they could leave the nuke plant running at full power all the time regearless of load and add wind and solar to the system whenever it is available. I'd go as far as saying biulding a distributed energy storage infrastructure would do more for the environment than any advanced nuke plant. That being said we have to get rid of the existing waste. Jeez. It's not making waste, its getting rid of it! Why isnt this happening now? One thing i see no answer for here is thst fast neutrons turn the reactor that contsins them radioactive. What is being done to address that waste stream? Thats a lot of radioactive material!
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GRA
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Re: Advanced nuclear reactors as part of a low carbon future

Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:44 pm

Actually, the amount of radioactive material is relatively small. For instance, the amount of steel and concrete in a typical nuke plant is far less than that required for a wind or solar array of the same output, so while it's large in relative terms, its small in absolute terms.

Via GCC:
ORNL and Shanghai Institute of Applied Physics in CRADA for development of fluoride salt-cooled high-temp reactors
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/03 ... sinap.html

Some quotes:
Oak Ridge National Laboratory and the Shanghai Institute of Applied Physics (SINAP) are engaged in a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) focused on accelerating scientific understanding and technical development of salt-cooled reactors, specifically fluoride salt-cooled high-temperature reactors (FHRs). The project will draw on ORNL’s expertise in fuels, materials, instrumentation and controls, design concepts, and modeling and simulation for advanced reactors, as well as the lab’s experience in the design, construction and operation of the Molten Salt Reactor Experiment, the only molten salt reactor ever built. (Design began in 1960, construction started early in 1962. The 7.4 MWth test reactor operated successfully from 1965 to 1969.) . . . .

FHRs. FHRs feature low-pressure liquid fluoride salt cooling; solid coated particle fuel; carbon-based neutron moderation; fully passive decay heat rejection; and a high temperature power cycle. FHRs have the potential to economically and reliably produce large quantities of electricity and high temperature process heat while maintaining full passive safety, according to ORNL. Leveraging the inherent safety characteristics of FHRs avoids the need for expensive, redundant safety structures, systems, and components (SSCs), providing the opportunity for substantial cost reduction.


The article contains considerably more than the above, for those who are interested in the details.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

AndyH
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Re: Advanced nuclear reactors as part of a low carbon future

Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:08 pm

GRA wrote:Actually, the amount of radioactive material is relatively small. For instance, the amount of steel and concrete in a typical nuke plant is far less than that required for a wind or solar array of the same output, so while it's large in relative terms, its small in absolute terms.

I've been trying to find good info on steel and cement - can you recommend any sources?

The last time I looked for total life-cycle embedded energy info, wind and solar soundly beat current-tech nuclear generation. That and the fact that we've mined the majority of the higher grade uranium on the planet underpins the realization that current nukes are not a solution to our climate problem.

I'm not averse to mass-produced new-tech nukes, especially if they're part of a distributed, modern (TIR style?) grid. And according to Sorensen and others, we've already got plenty of ready- or almost-ready thorium fuel in drums buried in New Mexico. But because wind and solar prices are falling as rapidly as they are, any nuclear project is going to have to get moving - and get the price many times lower - before they have even a remote chance of being a solution.


edit...from earlier threads - this was the best I was able to find (this paper includes cement and steel, but is for 'current tech' reactors, not 4th gen, for which I don't think there's any life-cycle info available.):
Life-cycle energy balance for nukes and renewables: http://www.buildup.eu/publications/21162
Wind power stations and cogeneration of heat and power are 1,5 times more cost-effective in reducing CO2 than nuclear power, energy efficiency measures are 10 times more cost-effective

Crash Course: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRgTUN1zz_ofJoMx1rB6Z0EA1OwAGDRdR

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=195788#p195788
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=280335#p280335
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GRA
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Re: Advanced nuclear reactors as part of a low carbon future

Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:28 pm

I am suffering a middle-aged moment re sources, but some googling on 'steel and cement usage nuclear vs. wind' brings up several sources. Here's a couple:

http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/10/18/tcase4/

http://www.buildup.eu/publications/21162
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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