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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: Audi Creates "Fuel of the Future" Using Carbon Dioxide &

Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:04 pm

mwalsh wrote:If they capture the CO2 to create it, it at least has the chance of being carbon neutral. I actually have more of a problem with them using water, unless they can use grey or waste water.


True, and I suppose it would be better than drilling in the Gulf, or the Arctic, or anywhere else.
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smkettner
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Re: Audi Creates "Fuel of the Future" Using Carbon Dioxide &

Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:25 pm

Did not read the details but this sounds far better than hydrogen storage.
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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Audi Creates "Fuel of the Future" Using Carbon Dioxide &

Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:40 pm

smkettner wrote:Did not read the details but this sounds far better than hydrogen storage.

Exactly. A better title for this thread would be "Carbon neutral diesel taking over as H2 fails" :lol:
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Slow1
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Re: Audi Creates "Fuel of the Future" Using Carbon Dioxide &

Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:45 pm

mwalsh wrote:If they capture the CO2 to create it, it at least has the chance of being carbon neutral. I actually have more of a problem with them using water, unless they can use grey or waste water.


Only if the energy source used to create this is in itself carbon neutral.

In the end you aren't going to get more energy out of this process than you put into it. Basically it is stable energy storage, but much like a battery in that you have to 'put' the energy into the system and will have losses in the conversion processes (both in and out). The challenge going forward I'm sure is minimizing that cost - i.e. getting as close to 1:1 ratio of energy in to energy out.

Mind you - I expect this would be very energy dense storage which has it's place and as such may be worth whatever 'premium' it takes to create it. I believe this is why the US Navy is interested in the tech - when you are guzzling liquid hydrocarbons thousands of miles from the closest friendly fueling station the ability to synthesize fuel from available resources (plenty of water and C02 out there in the ocean, and an on board nuclear power plant for energy) could be quite an advantage.

Don't misunderstand - I'm not putting down the tech and am sure the research is well worth it. I just am not sure I buy the marketing "Fuel of the Future" label as I suspect there are likely to be better options out there for many applications.
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Slow1
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Re: Audi Creates "Fuel of the Future" Using Carbon Dioxide &

Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:49 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
smkettner wrote:Did not read the details but this sounds far better than hydrogen storage.

Exactly. A better title for this thread would be "Carbon neutral diesel taking over as H2 fails" :lol:


Not really - more like "Converting H2 to diesel substitute" - note that the process first pulls H2 from the water (established process really and one of the sources of H2 for HFCs), then it uses another process to combine this H2 with C02 to make hydrocarbon chains and water....
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mbender
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Re: Audi Creates "Fuel of the Future" Using Carbon Dioxide &

Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:03 pm

Nubo wrote:Just what the world needs. More diesel engines.
As a former (recovering?) biodieseler, I must take exception to this! If a carbon-neutral diesel alternative can be created*, I'm all for it. Diesels are far superior to gassers**, and even though I'm 'against' ICE in general, there is a TON (many millions of tons, actually) of embedded energy, ingrained knowledge and ready infrastructure in place for that industry.


* IMO, almost all current biodiesel is NOT carbon- or food-vs-fuel neutral, even though the WVO folk might like to imagine and preach that it is.

** Thank you (in large part) to GM for giving them such a bad name here. And newer diesel engines are much quieter and cleaner than those of yestercentury.
I think I just felt my paradigm shift.

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JimSouCal
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Re: Audi Creates "Fuel of the Future" Using Carbon Dioxide &

Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:20 pm

AndyH wrote:The entire point of the project is to store renewable energy in ways that are more easily used in the current economy, while being able to easily evolve into a post-fossil fuel world without change. This is a part of the EU's transition to the Third Industrial Revolution that they began about 2004.
There are some applications of hydrocarbon energy that are going to be hard to do any other way. Jet aircraft for example. As others mention, the energy source to do such must be renewable for any sense to be made of it. For that matter, the process could be used to sequester carbon by putting the liquid back into old oil wells... Humm, maybe we should leave it in the ground in the first place...?

ishiyakazuo
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Re: Audi Creates "Fuel of the Future" Using Carbon Dioxide &

Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:02 am

Slow1 wrote:Don't misunderstand - I'm not putting down the tech and am sure the research is well worth it. I just am not sure I buy the marketing "Fuel of the Future" label as I suspect there are likely to be better options out there for many applications.

Yep, that was the point I was trying to make in the earlier posts I made too. It's probably got its place (I could see it being very efficient on the nuclear subs you mentioned, or even a side project for the wasted heat in nuclear power plants), but at this point, we don't even have many diesel cars here in the USA, because of various perceived problems with them (most of which are no longer even valid). I hate it when cool new tech gets overblown before it's even had a chance to be tried, because it sets the expectations WAY too high.
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mbender
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Re: Audi Creates "Fuel of the Future" Using Carbon Dioxide &

Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:21 pm

ishiyakazuo wrote:I hate it when cool new tech gets overblown before it's even had a chance to be tried, because it sets the expectations WAY too high.
You mean something like saying the LEAF had a 100-mile range? :-\ The names 'Solazyme' and 'Envia' also come to mind for some reason, and no doubt there are dozens of others.

Far better to do it like Tesla. I think people were expecting a nice vehicle before the S came out, but Tesla was not promoting it a best-in-class, multiple award-winning game-changer, as far as I know. I think that made the awards and praise stand out all the more when they came.
I think I just felt my paradigm shift.

2012 SL (One of the colors): 2-year lease, 2012+,
2015 S w/QC (A different color): 3-year lease, 2014+,
2017 SV (Same color as 2015 S): 3-year lease, 2017+, lower monthly than either above(!)

ishiyakazuo
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Re: Audi Creates "Fuel of the Future" Using Carbon Dioxide &

Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:28 pm

mbender wrote:
ishiyakazuo wrote:I hate it when cool new tech gets overblown before it's even had a chance to be tried, because it sets the expectations WAY too high.

You mean something like saying the LEAF had a 100-mile range? :-\

Yup. And look at all the whining that happened since then. ;)
2012 LEAF SL in Cayenne Red
40 mile R/T commute in Chicagoland
Leaf Spy Lite (June 2015, 22513 miles): AHr = 56.86, SOH = 86%, 393.13V, Hx = 73.55%, 924 L1/L2s, min/avg/max = 4.080 4.097 4.109 (29mV)

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