Long commutes : Sustainable ?

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TomT

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
10,656
Location
California, now Georgia
I'm sorry, but I find such comments arrogant. A person chooses to live and work where they do for a number of reasons, many of which may be out of their control, and to tell someone that their lifestyle and/or commute is "unsustainable" is simply rude.

evnow said:
But, as I've said elsewhere 90 mile commute is unsustainable. You would do yourself service by rethinking about it.
 
mogur said:
I'm sorry, but I find such comments arrogant. A person chooses to live and work where they do for a number of reasons, many of which may be out of their control, and to tell someone that their lifestyle and/or commute is "unsustainable" is simply rude.

evnow said:
But, as I've said elsewhere 90 mile commute is unsustainable. You would do yourself service by rethinking about it.
Sometimes the truth is rude.

Infact most of our lifestyles are unsustainable. If we can't even accept facts, how are we going to change ?

ps : I'm sure SUV owners consider us telling them to downsize or get an EV "arrogant" and "rude".
 
although evnow is correct, people just don't want to hear this message right now.

In a while, everyone will soon realize that's the case, but each person is going to need to come to that realization themselves, just like you can't tell someone they are making a mistake, they need to make their own mistakes and learn from the experience.

Watch: "escape from suburbia", or "National Geographic: Collapse", or even more direct: "Collpase" by Michael Ruppert, (all three on Netflix via network), to see what we are talking about. I would NOT watch these today/tonight, too depressing for NYE.
 
Sorry, but I stand by my comment: Without knowing someones situation and circumstances, it is rude and arrogant! I'm sure someone would say the same about me when I go out and burn a gallon of fuel every 3/4 of a mile in my boat but I enjoy it, it is worth it to me, and I have no intention of stopping. So, get over it.


mitch672 said:
although evnow is correct, people just don't want to hear this message right now.

In a while, everyone will soon realize that's the case, but each person is going to need to come to that realization themselves, just like you can't tell someone they are making a mistake, they need to make their own mistakes and learn from the experience.

Watch: "escape from suburbia", or "National Geographic: Collapse", or even more direct: "Collpase" by Michael Ruppert, (all three on Netflix via network), to see what we are talking about. I would NOT watch these today/tonight, too depressing for NYE.
 
mogur, go watch one of the movies.. then you will understand.

within less than 1 generation, we will all:

be working locally, in small communities
growing our own food, and go back to a farming society
our way of life is about to end, even if you aren't ready for it yet
the end of the oil age, makes it inevitable, there is not and never will be a replacement for oil that is as good. along with that, the corollary is, many people will be gone, the only reason there are 7 billion people on earth is because of cheap energy (oil)

now YOU get over it, its the hard truth, even if it's "rude" and "arrogant".
 
mogur said:
Sorry, but I stand by my comment: Without knowing someones situation and circumstances, it is rude and arrogant!
It is not rude to tell them it is unsustainable and they should start thinking about it. It would have been rude for me to tell him - change your job/home and get a leaf.

But is IS rude to tell others that it is rude to tell someone else what unsustainable is ;)
 
I'm with mogur on this one. To all those that like to judge others decisions, remember, you can only control your own; so make sure you take care of your own and understand the rest of us will too. If that means you like to live in an apartment and ride your bike to work, more power to you. If I chose to drive a semi to work instead of my cng Civic or have a 100 mile daily commute, then so be it. I decide what is and is not sustainable for me.

As far as the naive belief that we're all going back to agricultural societies, it's clear anyone making that point does not understand the various types of energy available globally. I don't believe in peak oil; but even if it has occurred; the US has several hundred years worth of natural gas and more is being discovered daily. Then there's nuclear, coal and of course the developing solar, wind and hydro.

You might not like the use of some of the energy forms above, but the masses will continue to use whatever form is cheapest and provides the highest standard of living.

ok, getting off the soapbox now.
 
+1

It's too bad that the board "moderator" isn't able to better moderate his views, or at least his mouth via the keyboard. His views are not shared by everyone here, most importantly his lack of decorum isn't either.

Here's hoping for more civility in the new year.
 
Adrian et all, it's pretty clear most have no concept of just how dependent on oil we are as a society, it goes way beyond energy. How will you make tires? Grow food without fertilizer, there are thousands of things that depend on oil

Go watch "Collapse" to get a clue
 
LakeLeaf said:
It's too bad that the board "moderator" isn't able to better moderate his views, or at least his mouth via the keyboard.
Wow. Some are taking this too personally. My being moderator has nothing to do with this. Afterall I'm not doing any "moderation" on others opinions.

I definitely don't plan to keep my mouth shut. I'd be doing a disservice. I tell exactly the same thing to my friends & colleagues.

Let me repeat. The whole ICE car - long commute is unsustainable. It is better to know the fact now and prepare in the next few years rather than face lot of problems later. Apparently people want to buy their heads in the sand ...

worlds-liquid-fuels-supply-eia-aeo2009.1269555738.JPG
 
nice chart evnow... as you can cleary see, we are at the very begining of the "unidentified project" gap starting very soon. That means, even with an increase in price, there still won't be enough oil to go around... something has to give. Thats the whole point.
 
Alright, let's blow the referee whistle on this thread and lock it down.

I'm in general concerned that lately this message board has started disintregating into anger, as so many message boards do.

We all have our own reasons for choosing the leaf or not choosing it. And we all have our reasons for joining the message board.

I've had a 2 mile walking commute, which suddenly became a 60 mile unsustainable commute for reasons beyond my control. It happens in life to all of us. Let's not be alarmist, angry, or mean. Those of us who can continue will get our leafs, and be the best ambassadors we can.
 
evnow said:
LakeLeaf said:
It's too bad that the board "moderator" isn't able to better moderate his views, or at least his mouth via the keyboard.
Wow. Some are taking this too personally. My being moderator has nothing to do with this. Afterall I'm not doing any "moderation" on others opinions.

I definitely don't plan to keep my mouth shut. I'd be doing a disservice. I tell exactly the same thing to my friends & colleagues.

Let me repeat. The whole ICE car - long commute is unsustainable. It is better to know the fact now and prepare in the next few years rather than face lot of problems later. Apparently people want to buy their heads in the sand ...

worlds-liquid-fuels-supply-eia-aeo2009.1269555738.JPG

Nice graph. It ignores all forms of energy other than Oil. See my previous post. Add nuclear, coal, natural gas, wind, solar and hydro and that gap disappears. By the way, my emissions and costs using cng for both my wife and I are lower that someone with a Prius driving half the distance.
 
driveleaf said:
I've had a 2 mile walking commute, which suddenly became a 60 mile unsustainable commute for reasons beyond my control. It happens in life to all of us. Let's not be alarmist, angry, or mean. Those of us who can continue will get our leafs, and be the best ambassadors we can.
As long as we recognize the things we do which are not sustainable we should do fine. As they say knowledge is power.

But, assuming that pointing out these things is somehow mean/rude/arrogant/alarmist etc is downright silly.

I'm splitting this thread, since the thread has gone OT.
 
mitch672 said:
snip How will you make tires? Grow food without fertilizer, there are thousands of things that depend on oil

Go watch "Collapse" to get a clue

Check out a process used since WW2 by South Africa: Fisher Tropsch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E2%80%93Tropsch_process

This works for trash too, UC Riverside made diesel this way a few years ago. Then of course it works with renewable bio-methane (from landfills). My point is simple: for reasons that escape me, people like to make themselves out to be experts when they are far from it.

And by the way, "getting it" doesn't happen from watching documentaries for me. They're always biased, one way, or another.

Anyway, I agree we should focus on promoting EVs, in this case the LEAF and drop the judgmental attitude that does nothing but alienate those that could join our ranks.
 
Adrian said:
Nice graph. It ignores all forms of energy other than Oil. See my previous post. Add nuclear, coal, natural gas, wind, solar and hydro and that gap disappears. By the way, my emissions and costs using cng for both my wife and I are lower that someone with a Prius driving half the distance.
Converting more than half a billion ICE vehicles is a decades long venture. So, other energy forms are not that relevent when it comes to transport.
 
Adrian said:
Check out a process used since WW2 by South Africa: Fisher Tropsch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E2%80%93Tropsch_process
I don't remember anyone starting such a plant in the US when oil hit $140. I wonder Why ?
 
Happy New Year to everyone, and lets hope that a new undiscovered source is found for evnows "unidentified projects" area on the graph, or we are all lin deep pooh.

:)

Mitch
 
evnow said:
Adrian said:
Check out a process used since WW2 by South Africa: Fisher Tropsch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E2%80%93Tropsch_process
I don't remember anyone starting such a plant in the US when oil hit $140. I wonder Why ?

They also didn't mention natural gas which was costing me $1.10 GGE (Gallon Gasoline Equivalent) the entire time everyone else was paying over $4 per gallon during that time. Unfortunately ignorance is rampant. News and documentaries have not been reporting facts for years, etc. I saved over $20,000 in fuel cost since my wife and I have been driving CNG. I won't save any additional money by going EV, it will cost me about the same in cents/mile, but I want to support EVs as a technology.

As far as Fisher Tropsch, it's real and it works. When gas hits a sustainable $6/gallon you'll hear more about it. Because South Africa had no choice back in WW2 they converted to it. They did not go to an agricultural society. Because of their infrastructure built since then, it works at current oil prices. Oil will have to stay above $150 for it to work for the US. But just imagine: using our coal reserves this way, natural gas reserves this way, all our trash this way, etc.

In the mean time, I'm with Boone Pickens in supporting the use of domestic natural gas as a bridge fuel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickens_Plan thereby reducing foreign oil imports.

They key is to have an open mind and to avoid being myopic in what can and can't be done.
 
Adrian said:
Unfortunately ignorance is rampant.
I agree. Few people understand energy economics or EROI. Are you aware of peak oil ? If you think you know the solutions I'm sure DOD is all ears.
 
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