WetEV
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Re: NOVA The Nuclear Option

Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:46 pm

VitaminJ wrote:In my opinion you are either for nuclear power or you're for fossil fuels. Renewables are the side-dish.


Renewables are a necessary part of the future mix. In my opinion so is nuclear power.

Future changes in technology might change the composition of the mix. But I don't see how you can completely get rid of the need for nuclear power, and I also don't see how getting rid of renewables is a better solution than a mix.

Fossil power needs to die sooner rather than later. Fossil power will die, the question is will it take civilization with it?
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sendler2112
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Re: NOVA The Nuclear Option

Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:51 pm

Chernobyl was a terrible deign that should have never been built.
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The only reason Fukushima became so bad was because the Gen 3 designs rely on diesel generators to back up the fail safe systems and the generators failed because they flooded. Maintenance workers that were mopping up water in one of the generator rooms from some drippy pipes in 2007 recommended moving them to higher ground but their advice was not taken.
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The new Gen 3+ and Gen 4 reactors are walk away safe.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: NOVA The Nuclear Option

Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:28 pm

I had come to believe that renewables were the answer, particularly with improved efficiencies in things like LED lighting and linear compressor refrigeration. But can you power something like a steel mill with a reasonable number of solar panels?

Sounds like it's time for the next golden age of nuclear power using these inherently safe reactor designs.
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RegGuheert
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Re: NOVA The Nuclear Option

Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:59 am

sendler2112 wrote:Chernobyl was a terrible deign that should have never been built.
Perhaps so. Meanwhile, there are still ELEVEN RBMK reactors still operating in Russia, some until the 2030s.
sendler2112 wrote:The new Gen 3+ and Gen 4 reactors are walk away safe.
Similar claims were made about the new reactor designs back in the 1970s. But only hindsight is 20/20. I wonder how many of the "inherently-safe" reactor designs of today will be later reviled because of the unforeseen flaws.
LTLFTcomposite wrote:<span>I had come to believe that renewables were the answer, particularly with improved efficiencies in things like LED lighting and linear compressor refrigeration. But can you power something like a steel mill with a reasonable number of <a href="http://www.shareasale.com/r.cfm?b=117950&u=964786&m=16774" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">Solar Panel</a>s?</span>
I'm not sure a steel mill is the best example for the point you are trying to make since they REQUIRE chemical reactions to produce steel from iron ore. Some steel mills actually PRODUCE excess electricity.

Perhaps a better question is whether or not photovoltaics would ever be useful to power an aluminum smelting plant.
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sendler2112
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Re: NOVA The Nuclear Option

Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:05 am

Can we really make enough solar panels to cover the Earth here and there in the sunniest spots in an area the size of Spain by the end of the century? And batteries and pumped hydro facilities to store a few days worth. And the billions of tons of wires installed everywhere that we will need regardless of the power sources we choose to use for our new all electrcal energy economy. All by the end of the century before we pass peak oil and it is too expensive to do any of it?
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If it works. Keep it running at least. Japan is shutting down electrcal plants that could be perfectly safe to use just by moving the generators and relay boxes to higher ground. And is now importing fossil fuel.
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Build the new Gen3+ reactors as a bridge to buy us a couple hundred years. As they already are in Georgia and South Carolina, USA, And China. Any area that does this will immediately become an area of economic growth. Then big oil can die with a whimper without any socio-politcal ramifications.
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The Gen4 reactors would be technological marvels right now if we hadn't turned our backs on their development in the 80's.

rmay635703
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Re: NOVA The Nuclear Option

Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:13 am

RegGuheert wrote:
VitaminJ wrote:The US Navy operates about 100 nuclear reactors all over the planet in operational conditions in the fricken ocean without a single accident.
Here is an extensive list of military nuclear accidents. Denying that they occurred does not move the discussion forward. Minimizing them doesn't either.
VitaminJ wrote:There have only been 3 nuclear power accidents in all of history, 1 of them was purely Soviet idiocy and incompetence, 1 of them was contained within the structures and safety procedures all worked and the media blew it out of proportions, and 1 involved a power plant built in 1979, 7 years before Chernobyl was built, being hit by one of the strongest earthquakes in decades and only failed because it was swamped with a tsunami that was thought not possible within the lifetime of the plant.
Here's a [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_power_accidents_by_country]complete(?) list of accidents at power plants by country
. There are WAY more than three accidents listed.[/quote]

? I read through that thing and I only found 2 ground based reactor incidents.

I really don't see its relevance to this discussion except to reinforce the fact we should have MSR Thorium reactors that cannot be used to make nuclear weapons, which go figure are dangerous to play GI Joe with.

sendler2112
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Re: NOVA The Nuclear Option

Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:00 pm

I would like to see how quickly these "no re-start" activist in Japan would change their tune if their choice was to go back to pre 2010 fossil fuel import levels with mandatory daily rolling blackouts as there are all through Africa and India.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: NOVA The Nuclear Option

Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:20 pm

sendler2112 wrote:I would like to see how quickly these "no re-start" activist in Japan would change their tune if their choice was to go back to pre 2010 fossil fuel import levels with mandatory daily rolling blackouts as there are all through Africa and India.

That would be a bummer if the cell towers lost power just as you were about to tweet how horrible TEPCO is.
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plugzin
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Re: NOVA The Nuclear Option

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:25 am

Google "RBMK Reactor", and you'll see why the Chernobyl design is fatally flawed. The problem was when that designed was mixed with a plant shift manager who didn't fully understand the risks of low power operation.
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Durandal
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Re: NOVA The Nuclear Option

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:17 am

sendler2112 wrote: It's going to take a mighty long extension cord on our electric tractors to start growing enough food for 11 Billion people in 70 years.


Really? Using the analogy of an extension cord? Come on now, battery powered tractors are not a long shot by any means, especially since they don't go far from home.

In any case, I do agree that the decline for fossil fuels will present a larger problem for food production than is realized. We'll have to stop growing corn for cows and ethanol, and instead grow vegetarian food for people. The reality is that all of the natural gas that's being flared in plenty of locations should be converted to ammonia and hoarded, because 10-20 years from now, when natural gas is a lot more expensive, people will be less inclined to be burning it in their homes, and the need for it to make fertilizer will be all the more dire.

The mechanization of farm production can easily be electrified, the hard part is going to be coming up with the necessary fertilizer at reasonable prices. I expect meat to be pretty expensive in 2040 unless we switch to soylent green. (Always an option!)
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