rmay635703
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:14 am

VitaminJ wrote:The same types of "collateral damage" happen in coal mines. The act of burning these fuels is many many times cleaner than actually getting it out of the ground.

Of course the ultimate answer is nuclear energy end of story.

Agree 100%

Our goal should be to reduce fuel consumption at all costs as the emissions from getting it outweigh any vehicle emissions.

Too bad no one cares about supply side pollution

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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:17 pm

Of course the ultimate answer is nuclear energy end of story.


Succinct, and probably more accurate than intended.
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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:47 pm

Turns out it doesn't really matter who's president as long as you have the judges in your corner. CARB will still be calling the shots, look for CAFE and ZEV mandates to remain pretty much as they were. Just like everything else.
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:33 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:Turns out it doesn't really matter who's president...


Yes. We are a nation of laws, not of men.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Novanglus_Essays/No._7


CARB is in place because of laws, not because of the opinions of a king or magistrate. It can be removed, as long as the Republic holds, only by changing the laws.
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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:37 am

Cars people don't want...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -push-back

Even if the EPA waiver was revoked (which seems unlikely) there are plenty of other levers CA could pull, and in fact you wonder why they haven't already. How about a displacement tax, both on initial registrations and new vehicle sales in the state as well as on annual renewals?
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jjeff
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:11 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:Cars people don't want...
.... How about a displacement tax, both on initial registrations and new vehicle sales in the state as well as on annual renewals?

Exactly, Americans DON'T want small hatchbacks/cars, they want SUVs and Pickups. Why are mfgs. so surprised when they make vehicles that people don't want, and they don't sell :roll: Sure there are people like us that will buy a BEV just because it's a BEV, but JSP won't! When you consider all the other inconveniences with BEVs(limited range, lack of charging infrastructure, etc.) it's no doubt even if they are giving away leases of BEVs in CA(something I don't really believe but with facts could be convinced) most people just don't want small cars.
IMO instead of trying to make a 200 or even 300 mile small car, they should use that same 60kw battery and stick it in a BE-SUV or even pickup, give the people what they want! Sure the range may only be 100-150 miles but at least it will be a vehicle people want. Many of us have been waiting for Mitsubishi to finally bring their PHEV Outlander to N. America, but many years later still nothing :x even though the same vehicle is(or least last time I looked) the #1 selling EV/PHEV in Europe, again a vehicle style people want. And note this even with it's anemic 20 something mile EV range. If Chevy can produce the extremely cramped Volt, why can't they do something similar to a larger vehicle :?

Oh BTW Europe has had the "displacement tax" for years, seems to work well enough, that and IMO some sort of weight-based tax like they do on commercial trucks. The weight of a vehicle is probably the #1 thing that deteriorates our roads, why should a vehicle that weighs 2x the weight of another pay the same tax, even though they are harder on the roads. I'm not sure if I'm for it or not, mainly because of my belief it would be a record keeping nightmare and ripe for cheating, but my state is considering a Republican-backed mileage-based fee for driving. I'd probably come out OK as I don't drive all that much 7-8k/year but others would probably be in for a rude awakening. Of course the Republican plan doesn't want to have anything to do with basing the tax on weight or displacement, after all that would affect businesses and drivers of large luxury vehicles......follow the money ;)
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:03 pm

jjeff wrote:Exactly, Americans DON'T want small hatchbacks/cars, they want SUVs and Pickups. Why are mfgs. so surprised when they make vehicles that people don't want, and they don't sell :roll: Sure there are people like us that will buy a BEV just because it's a BEV, but JSP won't! When you consider all the other inconveniences with BEVs(limited range, lack of charging infrastructure, etc.) it's no doubt even if they are giving away leases of BEVs in CA(something I don't really believe but with facts could be convinced) most people just don't want small cars.
IMO instead of trying to make a 200 or even 300 mile small car, they should use that same 60kw battery and stick it in a BE-SUV or even pickup, give the people what they want! Sure the range may only be 100-150 miles but at least it will be a vehicle people want. Many of us have been waiting for Mitsubishi to finally bring their PHEV Outlander to N. America, but many years later still nothing :x even though the same vehicle is(or least last time I looked) the #1 selling EV/PHEV in Europe, again a vehicle style people want. And note this even with it's anemic 20 something mile EV range. If Chevy can produce the extremely cramped Volt, why can't they do something similar to a larger vehicle :?

Oh BTW Europe has had the "displacement tax" for years, seems to work well enough, that and IMO some sort of weight-based tax like they do on commercial trucks. The weight of a vehicle is probably the #1 thing that deteriorates our roads, why should a vehicle that weighs 2x the weight of another pay the same tax, even though they are harder on the roads. I'm not sure if I'm for it or not, mainly because of my belief it would be a record keeping nightmare and ripe for cheating, but my state is considering a Republican-backed mileage-based fee for driving. I'd probably come out OK as I don't drive all that much 7-8k/year but others would probably be in for a rude awakening. Of course the Republican plan doesn't want to have anything to do with basing the tax on weight or displacement, after all that would affect businesses and drivers of large luxury vehicles......follow the money ;)

^ loaded with truth

Small cars are the worst place to introduce EV/PHEV powertrain technology, margins are thin, customers are there but highly price/value sensitive. Plus those vehicles get good FE to begin with, so the whole thing is swimming upstream. Unless of course your goal all along was just to meet the ZEV mandate while consuming as little lithium as possible. Still it seems like you'd do better to be selling your ZEVs into stronger demand and margins. Hard to believe Chevy and Nissan really didn't want the Volt and the LEAF to sell any better than they did, just doesn't seem like it's in their nature.

Taxing V6s and V8s does put a burden on carpenters and plumbers, presumably that gets passed on to those using their services, just like a carbon tax would. Lots of people driving around in vehicles they aren't spending there after tax dollars on, to them it doesn't matter. Big issue there IMO.
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:10 pm

I thought Model Ss and Leafs were popular around here, but lately I've seen more Model Xs than Ss, almost as many as Leafs. Seems like a no-brainer to make electric SUVs. Americans don't see to care at all about how much weight they're driving, in fact in many cases they think more is better anyway. SUVs have lots and lots of space for batteries.
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rmay635703
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:36 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:Taxing V6s and V8s does put a burden on carpenters and plumbers, presumably that gets passed on to those using their services, just like a carbon tax would. Lots of people driving around in vehicles they aren't spending there after tax dollars on, to them it doesn't matter. Big issue there IMO.

Taxing displacement would have zero affect on business, the tax would
1. Be mostly written off income tax meaning the incremental change in tax would be very small
2. There is no need for a v6 or v8 pickup, my fathers very old pickup had a 4 banger, granny gears and maybe 60hp. It pulled trailers, moved furniture and did everything a modern pickup typically does.

Next, larger vehicles do pay more tax since they use more fuel, I would argue if we want to go down the Euro road we instead just raise fuel tax and have the fuel tax be variable to hold a floor on the cost per gallon
Then lower registration of cars under a specific dimension, weight and displace to near zero and attempt to modify insurance codes so they are cheaper to insure liability wise. (Which a small car should be anyway)

I rather see the stick be much higher fuel cost and the carrot be reduced insurance and registration.

Historically the above was mostly the case with smaller vehicles but the trend has been to make smaller cars more to register and insure which is asinine.

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