Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

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edatoakrun

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The long-expected offensive against BEVs now opens, in the ongoing republican war on reason.

Trump to Undo Vehicle Rules That Curb Global Warming

WASHINGTON — The Trump administration is expected to begin rolling back stringent federal regulations on vehicle pollution that contributes to global warming, according to people familiar with the matter, essentially marking a U-turn to efforts to force the American auto industry to produce more electric cars.

The announcement — which is expected as soon as Tuesday and will be made jointly by the Environmental Protection Agency administrator, Scott Pruitt, and the transportation secretary, Elaine L. Chao — will immediately start to undo one of former President Barack Obama’s most significant environmental legacies.

During the same week, and possibly on the same day, Mr. Trump is expected to direct Mr. Pruitt to begin the more lengthy and legally complex process of dismantling the Clean Power Plan, Mr. Obama’s rules to cut planet-warming pollution from coal-fired power plants.

The regulatory rollback on vehicle pollution will relax restrictions on tailpipe emissions of carbon dioxide and will not require action by Congress. It will also have a major effect on the United States auto industry.

Under the Obama administration’s vehicle fuel economy standards, American automakers were locked into nearly a decade of trying to design and build ever more sophisticated fuel-efficient vehicles, including electric and hybrid models. The nation’s largest auto companies told Mr. Trump last month that they found those technical requirements too burdensome.

The E.P.A. will also begin legal proceedings to revoke a waiver for California that was allowing the state to enforce the tougher tailpipe standards for its drivers...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/us/politics/trump-vehicle-emissions-regulation.html
 
As long as the CARB state rules, led by California, remain, the auto industry will still be forced to make EVs, albeit in smaller numbers. Let's hope it's a long, long court fight.
 
This will be a major setback to the industry. Has it matured enough to stand without subsidies, or will this be the death knell? I don't pretend to know.

And as much as I would love to confidently proclaim that they cannot / will not kill Tesla, that cannot be known either.
 
If Tesla can still match GM in price, then between that and their not being dependent on the subsidy for their other cars to sell, I think they'll do ok. If most EVs jump in selling price by $7k though, that will be a real problem.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
This will be a major setback to the industry. Has it matured enough to stand without subsidies, or will this be the death knell? I don't pretend to know.

And as much as I would love to confidently proclaim that they cannot / will not kill Tesla, that cannot be known either.

I'm not sure I follow. The US is just one country. It might be the end or at least a dampening of EV sales in that country but it's a big world. EV's are doing reasonably well in growth of sales. The US will just drop out or fall back to 1970's technology just like with transport, eg high speed trains etc. I don't think it will have much effect on EV's in the world. If they go after Tesla at some point Germany, Holland, France or Spain will throw out the welcome mat and they'll move. Electric vehicles are here to stay. Just maybe not in the US.

If the US government lowers or gets rid of emmision controls the big three will just switch their markets to developing or third world countries that have no or low restrictions on vehicle emmisions. The US Just won't be able to sell into first world or developed countries. Kind of a sad day for Americans I suppose but the rest of the modern world will March on.
 
Hopefully the first thing they do instead of worrying about auto emissions is to repeal the gray market laws, once the gray market laws are gone and I can legally import any japanese or european car I want,
they can do whatever BS with the emissions standards, but for god sake keep the damn fuel economy requirements!

DNAinaGoodWay said:
There would still be Tesla, and imported EVs, even if American OEMs were to stop producing them. How long before Chinese EVs enter the US market?

My dad has owned a Miles ZX40 for close to a decade, so I guess they already were here
 
None of this should be coming as any surprise, so if it was expected to have a significant impact on Tesla you'd expect their shares would have sold off, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
 
webeleafowners said:
GetOffYourGas said:
This will be a major setback to the industry. Has it matured enough to stand without subsidies, or will this be the death knell? I don't pretend to know.

And as much as I would love to confidently proclaim that they cannot / will not kill Tesla, that cannot be known either.

I'm not sure I follow. The US is just one country. It might be the end or at least a dampening of EV sales in that country but it's a big world. EV's are doing reasonably well in growth of sales. The US will just drop out or fall back to 1970's technology just like with transport, eg high speed trains etc. I don't think it will have much effect on EV's in the world. If they go after Tesla at some point Germany, Holland, France or Spain will throw out the welcome mat and they'll move. Electric vehicles are here to stay. Just maybe not in the US.

If the US government lowers or gets rid of emmision controls the big three will just switch their markets to developing or third world countries that have no or low restrictions on vehicle emmisions. The US Just won't be able to sell into first world or developed countries. Kind of a sad day for Americans I suppose but the rest of the modern world will March on.

Yup. I realized as soon as I submitted that comment that it was overly dramatic. Still, as an american myself, it severely delays my desire to eventually go 100% electric.

But you're right. Other countries will push on. Europe. Asia. The US will be left in the dust.

Trump's environmental policies could cause a huge step backwards in local air quality, and I think that's a valid concern. But world wide, most people see the imminent danger in proceeding with the status quo.
 
In Vancouver (Canada), used EVs like the Leaf are a no brainer, particularly in light of our federal government having mandated carbon pricing nation wide.

As of today, we pay $5 CA per US gallon for gas. My ICE car (2004 Hyundai Santa Fe) gets 20 mpg on a good day. So, 4 gallons of gas at a cost of $20 would give me the same range as my Leaf, but I pay about $2 to charge the Leaf (20 kWh @ $0.11/kWh) - 1/10th the cost of gas!

And yet, so many Vancouver residents are convinced that an EV can't meet their needs. I'm still hopeful that there is a rising tide though...

It's not just in Canada that there's a very compelling financial reason to abandon ICE cars for good. In fact, the US is the exception rather than the rule.

Eventually, when the true costs of the environmental and health consequences of ICE vehicles comes to roost, US citizens will demand change.

In other words, it's easy to blame government, but, as evidence by the fact that only a small percentage of Vancouver residents drive EVs, real change only occurs when ordinary people "see the light" and switch to EVs because it's in their financial best interest AND it's the right thing to do for the environment.

Trump is a populist at heart, he loses his power base when his ideology becomes massively unpopular. As early adopters, the more we evangelize, the more likely mass adoption will happen.
 
alozzy said:
And yet, so many Vancouver residents are convinced that an EV can't meet their needs. I'm still hopeful that there is a rising tide though...
If they are right, a plug-in would be a fantastic upgrade. E.g. your 80 miles in a day would be covered by 5.5 kWh of electricity and one gallon of liquid fuel in a Prius Prime, and they would have all the flexibility and range they think they require.

Honestly though, it is pretty easy to improve on a 20 mpg SUV with current ICE offerings.
 
I would guess that at least half the population of Vancouver could meet their daily commute needs with a pure BEV.

Honestly though, it is pretty easy to improve on a 20 mpg SUV with current ICE offerings.

Yes, which is why I no longer drive the Santa Fe and will be selling it in the Spring ;)

To your point about easily improving on 20 mpg, totally agree! Yet, there are millions of people driving older SUVs (which get crappy mileage and pollute like crazy) who choose to continue to drive them because EVs scare them. I've had countless conversations with people who, when I talk about EVs, politely nod and then roll their eyes as soon as one mentions either range or charging time. It's that mind set that's holding back mass adoption of HPEVs, BEVs, etc - not political will or lack thereof.

FYI: I would have gladly purchased a Leaf 3 years ago, if I could have afforded one. But it was only this year that I was able to get a used Leaf in my price range and I'm so glad I did. Hopefully there's a good chunk of the population that's been doing the same thing and this year is the year they make the leap.
 
No surprise.

Sadly, Trump's collecting his in-direct tax money in a big way, and getting rid of true visionaries like Elon Musk.

1. Approve the Dakota Access pipeline
2. Kill EV policies - oil industry/gasoline has lots of "in-direct" taxes for Trump
3. By stifling the EV momentum, he gets to kick Elon in the gut.

... and you can see how this ends for America. :-(
 
alozzy said:
FYI: I would have gladly purchased a Leaf 3 years ago, if I could have afforded one. But it was only this year that I was able to get a used Leaf in my price range and I'm so glad I did. Hopefully there's a good chunk of the population that's been doing the same thing and this year is the year they make the leap.

It may not be about political will, but those politics directly affect the affordability of EVs. If the tax credit goes away, EVs become more expensive. Then people will be even less able to afford them, new or used.
 
Didn't realize you get a federal tax credit for used EVs, sorry. You're lucky, we don't have any credits for used EVs. I can see how that tips the scales in favor of ICE vehicles somewhat. For me, at 1/10th the cost for electricity vs gas, it's compelling without credits - but we have a carbon tax too.
 
edatoakrun said:
The long-expected offensive against BEVs now opens, in the ongoing republican war on reason.

So? Ice doesn't care.

6a0133f03a1e37970b01b8d2680600970c-pi


Will we have a Blue Water North Pole this summer?
 
alozzy said:
Didn't realize you get a federal tax credit for used EVs, sorry. You're lucky, we don't have any credits for used EVs. I can see how that tips the scales in favor of ICE vehicles somewhat. For me, at 1/10th the cost for electricity vs gas, it's compelling without credits - but we have a carbon tax too.
I think you misunderstood me. The federal tax credit does not apply to used cars. The only exception I know of is (was?) the CO state credit which applies to any car (new or used) that has not yet been registered in the state. (someone from CO, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here).

The effect of the tax credit on used prices is indirect. If a new Leaf can be purchased for ~$20k (which it can today, in many states), how much would a 3-year old car be worth? Probably at most half that.

If those incentives go away, that same Leaf would cost $30k new. So the used Leafs would presumably jump in value as well.
 
Infra-structure. Infra-structure.

Let yelp more on places with EV charger. Make it a trendy thing. Boo on places without charger. Make it big on social media.
As a daily driver , L2 charger everywhere I go shopping, eating, etc is just working. I can plug in, go eat, come back an hour later. L3 is not much good for that usage. L3 is good for "emergency charging", may be long trip. For long trip, i will drive my prius. Guess what, i do NOT have charger at my apartment. But I am driving a EV. It can work.

The government cannot stop i-phone, or online shopping. The population just move on. The industry will follow.

Automotive companies will lobby for barriers for imported EVs, like what they did to Tesla. They do what they do. We do what we do. Nothing personal...

Vision:
- hey, you smart, old and young, give us that invention on fuel cell, that can be recharged at home 99% efficient.
- hey, you businessman, built a national wide low cost used EV lease business, that the HUGE low income market can be reached. (Their cars are usually not in good emission shape....)

my 2 cents.
 
I wonder what the VW settlement money will end up going for?

Was supposed to build a nationwide quick charge network, maybe VW diesels will come back?
 
Legal battlefield:

Want to Gut Emission Rules? Prepare for War With California

IN ITS ONGOING jihad against federal regulations, the Trump administration has indicated some interest in targeting the ones that attempt to fight climate change. First in its sights: a funky law that gives the state of California the right to make its own rules on automotive emissions. But because of the way laws and business work, the California exemption is one of the most powerful environmental tools in the world.

So California’s not going down without a fight.

A quick history lesson: When legislators wrote the 1963 Clean Air Act, they acknowledged that California already had pollution-fighting rules, and that its environmental situation was especially dire. So they gave the state the right to write its own, stricter standards.

“It’s hard to overstate how important the ability for California to set its standards has been to public health and clean air over the past 40 years,” says Don Anair, deputy director for the clean vehicles program at the Union of Concerned Scientists. “Time and again, California’s been willing and able to move forward.”...

Good news for environmental cheerleaders: Stripping California of its special status would require a change to the Clean Air Act—the kind of legislating a Democratic filibuster could derail.

But, you say, the EPA doesn’t have to kill the waiver process if it just refuses to issue any new ones. It might even have the legal right to rescind already granted waivers. But California can fight back—and it’s got a stocked arsenal.

“The statute is very clear. It says EPA shall grant the waiver,” says Cara Horowitz, co-executive director of the Emmett Institute on Climate Change and the Environment at UCLA School of Law. The EPA can only hit the reject button if it can prove a requested rule is weaker than the federal standards, isn’t consistent with the Clean Air Act, or “does not need such standards to meet compelling and extraordinary conditions.” Through the 1990s, Los Angeles smog conditions were severe enough to cancel after-school sports and flood emergency rooms—compelling and extraordinary. Today, the motivating threat is climate change...

What if Trump does start rolling back standards? “We’ll see them in court,” says Roland Hwang, director of the National Resources Defense Council’s energy and transportation program...
https://www.wired.com/2017/03/want-gut-emission-rules-prepare-war-california/
 
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