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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:48 pm

downeykp wrote:That is why they are investigating. Geez. Pull your head out of the sand much?

Yeah? Wake me up when they find something. The first liar doesn't stand a chance.
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downeykp
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:19 pm

The noose is getting closer to the Orange one. Hopefully this clown show administration will not be around for a full term.
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:37 pm

abasile wrote:it's a matter of a potentially invalid election outcome. Given that, the Supreme Court could possibly rule that Hillary Clinton was the "true" winner.


Not under the Constitution, and a very bad idea as well.

abasile wrote:Recall, of course, that the Supreme Court had to step in and rule in favor of Bush for the election in 2000.


I have not problem with the Court stepping in to decide on an election closer than the margin of error, which Bush vs Gore was. Final recount, done by a list of newspapers show that Bush would have won, using Gore's suggested counting standards, and Gore would have won, with Bush's suggested counting standards. Someone has to decide, and I'm ok with that being a court ruling or for that matter, a coin flip.

It is a very bad idea for the Court to overturn decided elections. Look at Venezuela for a current example. That power is for Congress, and not for the Courts.

Impeach and Convict. Sure, requires a majority of both sides of Congress. Sure, is an even bigger real problem if the Vice President is part of the plot. Frankly, I doubt if there is anything there about Pence. Not his style. Not that I agree with Pence, but I'd trust him. Sure, Impeach and Convict is a big mess at best. But if Trump was plotting with a foreign government... It may well come to that.
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downeykp
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:43 pm

Wet, if he gamed the system to become president wouldn't the outcome be invalid? You said "decided elections", sure if they were decided fairly, impeach and convict. But the evidence could point to collusion with the Russians which again, should invalidate the whole process.
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:16 pm

golfcart wrote:Great!! So we agree, there was a bias which caused a systematic error! It is nice that 2 pages later we could get that settled and I'm glad you came around. It is highly unlikely that they were wrong so uniformly in one direction unless there was some sort of systematic failure in their method. I think the bias was that people lied because they don't trust the system and you think it might have been a multitude of other possibilities... that's fine. Either way, I think we agree that this election was different and the pollsters need to figure out why if they want to do better in the future with unconventional candidates.


Every election is different. The polls were within the margin of error. Can't ask for more.
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:38 am

downeykp wrote:Wet, if he gamed the system to become president wouldn't the outcome be invalid? You said "decided elections", sure if they were decided fairly, impeach and convict. But the evidence could point to collusion with the Russians which again, should invalidate the whole process.


Remember that people, in general, are fallible. Even the best of people, and more so the worst. We can't ask for perfect outcomes, only "good enough" outcomes.

So to keep a government reasonable honest, we need to minimize and separate powers. The power to invalidate an election after the fact is a huge power. I see no reason to grant that power to anyone: not the Supreme Court, not the President, not Congress. Sure, such a power might be used for good. I'm more concerned about misuse. We don't need a "One Ring".

As for calling new elections, under the British system, that is a power of the Monarch. In the usual course, the Prime Minister asks the Monarch to call new elections and the Monarch does so. Exactly once in modern times, the King said no. In the case of an election that appeared invalid, the King or Queen might just order new elections, without waiting for the PM's request. In a Republic, we have no one with the authority and disconnection from party politics that could serve such a function. So we have elections on fixed schedules. Once the election is complete, next election...baring death and removal from office. See Impeach and Convict.

The power to Impeach and Convict is also a huge power, and the history of use of that power should be sobering. Only one of the three uses of that power, the Impeachment of Nixon, was clearly in the best interest of the Republic.
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abasile
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:39 am

WetEV wrote:
downeykp wrote:Wet, if he gamed the system to become president wouldn't the outcome be invalid? You said "decided elections", sure if they were decided fairly, impeach and convict. But the evidence could point to collusion with the Russians which again, should invalidate the whole process.


Remember that people, in general, are fallible. Even the best of people, and more so the worst. We can't ask for perfect outcomes, only "good enough" outcomes.

So to keep a government reasonable honest, we need to minimize and separate powers. The power to invalidate an election after the fact is a huge power. I see no reason to grant that power to anyone: not the Supreme Court, not the President, not Congress. Sure, such a power might be used for good. I'm more concerned about misuse. We don't need a "One Ring".

As for calling new elections, under the British system, that is a power of the Monarch. In the usual course, the Prime Minister asks the Monarch to call new elections and the Monarch does so. Exactly once in modern times, the King said no. In the case of an election that appeared invalid, the King or Queen might just order new elections, without waiting for the PM's request. In a Republic, we have no one with the authority and disconnection from party politics that could serve such a function. So we have elections on fixed schedules. Once the election is complete, next election...baring death and removal from office. See Impeach and Convict.

The power to Impeach and Convict is also a huge power, and the history of use of that power should be sobering. Only one of the three uses of that power, the Impeachment of Nixon, was clearly in the best interest of the Republic.

I appreciate your thoughtful reasoning. Yes, I agree that we wouldn't want our courts overturning elections willy-nilly, and I don't like the idea of depending on a monarch! There certainly is a great deal of genius in our system of government. Even though it doesn't always yield what seem to be the most fair outcomes, it does a good job of achieving long term stability.

So that leaves us with the established presidential line of succession: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... succession

Should Trump be impeached and convicted, just about anyone on that list would make a better president, in my opinion. Either way, we have to make the best of things for now, and I'm grateful for some of the more moderate advisors that the President has - hopefully he'll listen to them.
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:02 am

Sure, all without a shred of evidence, just deep state Obama holdover operatives tossing out innuendo amplified by uber left biased media... all to obviate the will of the voters.
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:20 am

There are many pages worth of off-topic comments on this thread:

Would moderatores care to move those posts to this thread?

Trump’s failing FAKE presidency

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=23740
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Re: Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:09 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:Sure, all without a shred of evidence, just deep state Obama holdover operatives tossing out innuendo amplified by uber left biased media... all to obviate the will of the voters.


Flynn isn't asking for immunity because he is innocent.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN16H2OR

Trump has claimed that Trump could murder a random child in cold blood witnessed by hundreds of people, and still keep his followers. All the witnesses would be snowflakes, or deep state Obama holdover operatives, or the lying uber left biased enemies of the people media.

Is Trump wrong on this?

I fear for the Republic.
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