GetOffYourGas
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Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:55 pm

WetEV wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:repeat viscous cycle.


Dictionary wrote:adjective: viscous

having a thick, sticky consistency between solid and liquid; having a high viscosity.
"viscous lava""


Somehow I doubt if that is what you mean.


I'm pretty sure most people understand he meant "vicious".

Merriam-Webster wrote:vicious cycle (noun)

a repeating situation or condition in which one problem causes another problem that makes the first problem worse


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vicious%20cycle
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:50 pm

Um, yeah, that's it... I was referring to the oil in the crankcase :oops:
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

edatoakrun
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Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:00 pm

abasile wrote:... the 2017 LEAF is rated at 112 MPGe compared to 99 MPGe on the 2011 LEAF. That's only 13% better, but still significant. Much of that comes from having a more efficient charging system, of course...

I don't think so.

See my reply here:

Guess the Monroney contest: Tesla 3 and LEAF 2 efficiency ratings

Gen one LEAF efficiency rating peaked with the 2013 MY, at 115 MPGEe.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... 4&id=30979

The more efficient charging system explanation for the MY 2013 MPGe increase...

...is conclusively debunked by EPA certification reports, which were unavailable ~five years ago...

viewtopic.php?p=509359#p509359
no condition is permanent

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:57 pm

While this higher efficiency engine technology from Mazda isn't in showrooms either, we shouldn't really talk about EVs as a fait accompli (I checked the spelling this time). There's some very nice but very expensive and somewhat problematic luxury cars available from Tesla, a more mainstream model they are trying to get into production, the Bolt, and a ragtag collection of short range grocery getters. The future definitely isn't here yet. :D

This is more likely competition for hybrids than EVs in the near term.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

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Nubo
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Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:21 pm

SageBrush wrote:...When talking about ICE, one must be careful to distinguish peak efficiency, average efficiency, or efficiency at an arbitrary power band. Mazda picked an arbitrary power band that showcases the tech advance but that says very, very little about overall efficiency improvement. ...


This. Probably why the mention of using it to improve efficiency in hybrids -- the electric portion making up for the lack of general tractability of a "gasoline diesel". And so even if implemented would actually serve as a stepping-stone to full electric. Hybrids are the gateway drug to BEVs.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

SageBrush
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Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:25 am

My rule of thumb for generic Americans is this:
20 mpg for $2 a gallon fuel
30 mpg for $3 a gallon fuel
40 mpg for $4 a gallon fuel

So long as fuel costs meet these constraints, the consumer prioritizes things like looks, convenience and power.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

rmay635703
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Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:53 pm

Ah the joys of lean burn.

Cost of ownership electricity VRS gas is likely more of a factor

States with...
High EV insurance, high EV registration, high electric prices don’t help

SageBrush
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Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:23 am

Nubo wrote:Hybrids are the gateway drug to BEVs.

As a current and past owner of these intermediate electrified cars I would say that PHEV are gateway cars; hybrids act like normal ICE cars with improved fuel economy.

The earlier comment that the Mazda engine may be competition to hybrids sounds right to me. It will be interesting to follow, since Mazda has an excellent engineering reputation and they tend to live up to their marketing. EVs do appear to have a gathering momentum, at least in the developed countries and urban areas where pollution is a daily issue. That still leaves a lot of market to be exploited the world over. India, for example. Or perhaps in SUVs where EV is expensive.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

LeftieBiker
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Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:09 am

As a current and past owner of these intermediate electrified cars I would say that PHEV are gateway cars; hybrids act like normal ICE cars with improved fuel economy.


I have to disagree, at least in the case of the Prius. In 2010 I persuaded my housemate to lease a Prius II, as a great lease was being offered. It was our first non-standard car, although I was into electric scooters and bicycles. What impressed her most was the quiet while stopped, and the gentle, quiet low speed ride. I really liked the electric drive. While many of us here now have PHEVs, I think that most of us hybrid to EV converts had standard hybrids first rather that PHEVs.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

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abasile
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Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:14 am

edatoakrun wrote:
abasile wrote:... the 2017 LEAF is rated at 112 MPGe compared to 99 MPGe on the 2011 LEAF. That's only 13% better, but still significant. Much of that comes from having a more efficient charging system, of course...

I don't think so. ... See my reply here: ...
viewtopic.php?p=509359#p509359

That's interesting, as it challenges one of my long-help assumptions. However, if it's true that the 2013+ gains actually had more to do with drivetrain improvements, etc., and less to do with charging, that doesn't change my overall point. That is, overall EV efficiency has improved and should continue to improve, so efficiency and fuel savings should continue to be good reasons to drive EVs even with uptrending ICE vehicle efficiency.

SageBrush wrote:My rule of thumb for generic Americans is this:
20 mpg for $2 a gallon fuel
30 mpg for $3 a gallon fuel
40 mpg for $4 a gallon fuel

So long as fuel costs meet these constraints, the consumer prioritizes things like looks, convenience and power.

I agree that this is the bigger hurdle for EVs. Many drivers will stick with what they're used to, unless/until it brings them significant discomfort.

This is one reason that I am a fan of Tesla, their product delays and glitches notwithstanding. Beautiful and fast cars that happen to be EVs while enabling full ICE replacement. I'm pretty sure that LEAF sales have benefited significantly from Tesla's existence.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

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