User avatar
LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4335
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Boca Raton FL

Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:15 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/25/with-ne ... ngine.html

30% efficiency improvement, less demand for gas, lower gas prices, repeat viscous cycle.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7138
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:36 pm

as much as 30 percent fuel efficiency over its Skyactiv-G engine
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

User avatar
abasile
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1890
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2011
Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:04 pm

Keep in mind that EV drivetrains and batteries have been getting more efficient as well. I believe our 2011 LEAF is rated at 99 MPGe. The Tesla Model 3 gets something like 126 MPGe, and the Hyundai Ioniq EV gets 136 MPGe.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 5583
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:30 am

ICEVs still cannot be refueled at home using fuel entirely produced at home. Even "homemade" biofuel requires a source of oil.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1648
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:30 am

Hamper? Maybe. Stop? No way.

EV's offer far more than lower operating cost. In fact, they are simply better for everything short of a long trip. I would argue that overall, they are better than ICEVs.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

SageBrush
Posts: 1413
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:09 am

abasile wrote:Keep in mind that EV drivetrains and batteries have been getting more efficient as well. I believe our 2011 LEAF is rated at 99 MPGe. The Tesla Model 3 gets something like 126 MPGe, and the Hyundai Ioniq EV gets 136 MPGe.
That is the car, not the motor per se.

If you take an ICE car and give it a Cd of 0.24 it will also have impressive MPG. E.g., the Prius Prime
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

SageBrush
Posts: 1413
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:18 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
as much as 30 percent fuel efficiency over its Skyactiv-G engine

Exactly. When talking about ICE, one must be careful to distinguish peak efficiency, average efficiency, or efficiency at an arbitrary power band. Mazda picked an arbitrary power band that showcases the tech advance but that says very, very little about overall efficiency improvement.

About the best an ICE can ever hope to theoretically reach is current Toyota hybrid levels of about 55 mpg over a complete drive cycle. Getting there without a supplemental battery to flatten out the power curve and not be under-powered would be quite a feat* but that is the limit. At current fuel prices a car like that costs about 4 cents a mile. My LEAF, fueled by my home PV, costs 0.5 cents a mile.

Regarding the new Mazda engine, it sounds like they are trying to get rid of the air throttle and its attendant 'partial power' losses every petrol ICE so far developed suffers from. In effect, they are 'diesel-izing' the engine. That is fine, but the problem to date has been huge increases in Nox and particulates ... and then having to spend tech and money on emission control. The VW diesel story informs the Mazda story: look for the emissions profile and emissions controls it requires. If it is anything comparable to diesel, it will fail.

*It has been talked about. Presumably a turbo, along with variable displacement that does away with the throttle plate, could get there.
Last edited by SageBrush on Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

User avatar
abasile
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1890
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2011
Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:51 am

SageBrush wrote:
abasile wrote:Keep in mind that EV drivetrains and batteries have been getting more efficient as well. I believe our 2011 LEAF is rated at 99 MPGe. The Tesla Model 3 gets something like 126 MPGe, and the Hyundai Ioniq EV gets 136 MPGe.
That is the car, not the motor per se.

If you take an ICE car and give it a Cd of 0.24 it will also have impressive MPG. E.g., the Prius Prime

You are certainly correct that the vehicles I mentioned are more aerodynamic than the 2011-2017 LEAF. I believe the Ioniq also has a Cd of 0.24.

However, we've also seen significant efficiency improvements apart from aerodynamics. It appears that the 2017 LEAF is rated at 112 MPGe compared to 99 MPGe on the 2011 LEAF. That's only 13% better, but still significant. Much of that comes from having a more efficient charging system, of course. Still, there remains room for improvement.

The bottom line is that Mazda's leadership is wrong to suggest that it's enough for now to improve the ICE. Okay, so with a 30% improvement in fuel efficiency across the board, we'll only be warming the planet 70% as quickly. That certainly helps, and the world doesn't yet have the battery production capacity for every new car to be an EV, but legacy companies like Mazda have been dragging their feet on EVs, pure and simple.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:45 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:Hamper? Maybe. Stop? No way.

EV's offer far more than lower operating cost. In fact, they are simply better for everything short of a long trip. I would argue that overall, they are better than ICEVs.


Although SageBush has the technical details right about Mazda's claims, the above is why EV adoption will not be hampered (other than price of the vehicle).
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs]

WetEV
Posts: 1757
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:12 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:repeat viscous cycle.


Dictionary wrote:adjective: viscous

having a thick, sticky consistency between solid and liquid; having a high viscosity.
"viscous lava""


Somehow I doubt if that is what you mean.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

Return to “Environmental Issues”