DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 10:41 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Rather than raise my blood pressure and wear out my fingers, I'll just point you in the right direction.


Ah yes. Even after I've pointed out quite clearly that studies can be produced to support anything, your response is to point to studies you found on Google. How very productive.

My main point is that people here are eager to recklessly punish those who aren't part of the EV faith. Sadly, you think I'm trying to rationalize and defend the automotive industry. I'm merely pointing out the very serious flaws in punishing the wrong target. Target the car makers, not the innocent consumers. I guess I used too much sarcasm in my posts and some have difficulty understanding that form of communication. If you would think it through rationally, you would appreciate that punishing innocent people isn't the solution.

If you still think punishing innocent people is appropriate, then please replace your EV with a FCV as you have contributed to child slavery and also need to be punished. (Sadly, owning a FCV is likely very severe punishment.) Until then, you are just doing the double-standard two step.

In case you have missed it despite being stated multiple times, I do oppose diesel cars and think they should be removed. Just don't do it in a knee-jerk, irrational manner driven by bad-study induced hysteria and cause a political disaster that will set environmentally friendly policies back. Villifying innocent people and punishing them is never a good idea. And when they are a really large group, it gets to be a really bad idea pretty fast. If we do it to diesel owners on the environment issue, they can very easily do it back to us on the social justice issue. (Edit: And sadly, they probably outnumber us at the voting booth.)
Last edited by DarthPuppy on Mon May 21, 2018 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 10:46 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Why is the fact that shoddy studies can be produced being used by you to assume that studies by reputable groups are therefore shoddy? Are you really going to just deny solid epidemiological research? If so, I've just lost much respect for you...


I'm guessing you must not be reading the full posts. Sorry that some of them are a bit long and wordy.

So again, I will state: "Now, there are no doubt very sound studies that conclude car exhaust is a contributing factor in x% of deaths in areas with high air pollution. But to grab those and then make claims that diesel car owners are killing people is rather absurd."

I'm not saying that diesel cars shouldn't be removed. I'm saying don't use 'studies' to make bogus claims about diesel owners being killers. Always treat the consumer with respect. Doing otherwise will alienate them and damage the cause. Focus on the real target - the car companies that pulled this fast one on Europe.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 10:51 pm

I realize the car companies are very powerful and hard to really punish for this. But that political reality should not result in scape-goating the consumers who got duped by them. That is just re-victimizing the victim. Doing that will not win friends in the next election.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 10:58 pm

You keep saying that we are claiming that diesel owners are killers. I have been claiming that diesel engines are killers, and that the companies manufacturing and selling them under false pretenses are killers. Either you are reading into what we write things that aren't there, or you are just engaging in another form of denial. Maybe someone in this thread wrote something that you can construe as meaning what you claim, but that isn't what this is about. It's about not dealing with a large-scale crime against human (and non-human) health with delays and obfuscations that allow the crime to continue to result in tens of thousands of preventable human deaths.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 11:10 pm

SageBrush wrote:And honestly ? Diesel buyers are not exactly victims in this mess. They bought the cars to save a few pennies on petrol and enjoy the diesel torque and were happy to swallow the manufacturer swill about "clean diesel" -- if they cared about pollution at all. I'm not going to lose any sleep over any forced contribution to clean up the mess,


Perhaps you are right that I'm over-reacting to this aspect.

But the news story in the first post is a move that will distinctly impact the consumer, not the automaker. This is the wrong target. I tried to point that out and got jumped on and everyone is claiming that yes, we must punish the consumer now because the matter is so hysterically urgent. We can't wait for more appropriate fixes that don't punish innocent people. I think the rushed fix on the backs of the consumer would be a very bad mistake.

Part of the confusion is likely due to the fact that 2 different users started posting in opposition to my posts in which the concept is to not punish the consumer.
Last edited by DarthPuppy on Mon May 21, 2018 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 11:34 pm

In summary, I think we are mostly on the same page on a number of aspects.
1. The environment needs our help.
2. Diesels aren't helping but are hurting.
3. Therefore, diesels need to be replaced.
4. We'd all love for the burden to be born by the automakers that pulled this fast one.

Our main deviation is that I don't think doing a well-intentioned, but misdirected 'something' that hits innocent consumers is the correct solution. The counter posts to my posts seem to suggest that the situation is so urgent that it justifies the means. On this point, we may have to agree to disagree.

Most of the rest is the result of my statements to that end being picked apart and then defending those statements. Granted I did engage in counter-picking apart. :oops:
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 11:50 pm

I'm guessing that you don't suffer from any ailment that is made worse by high NOx levels, and don't have any loved ones in that position, either. There is nothing "hysterical" about wanting to stop an ongoing crime that is killing large numbers of people and that can be stopped with relative ease, without costing any more lives. Your concern is for people who will lose money on their automobiles. Mine is for those who will lose their lives if the diesel manufacturers are allowed to keep stalling and lying. You claim that financial assistance for old diesel owners is unlikely in the somewhat socialist EU. I find that ironic, considering the fact that socialism-hating America successfully implemented the Cash for Clunkers program.
Last edited by LeftieBiker on Tue May 22, 2018 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Tue May 22, 2018 12:43 am

DarthPuppy wrote:
SageBrush wrote: All you have demonstrated is a profound ignorance of epidemiology and the role of autopsies.


That is what you got from this exercise? So you fail to comprehend that someone can produce a shody study to advocate whatever stance they want to? Even after I've pointed out quite clearly how it can be done? Wow.

Shoddy arguments are a dime a mega-dozen. Yours are a good example; the garbage coming out of the White House these days are another.

Try to not confuse them with high quality, peer reviewed literature published in tier 1 scientific journals. And before you blithely discount ¨so called scientists," I suggest you get published in a reputable, peer reviewed journal first. It will probably take you 10 years of difficult University studies and another 5 - 10 years of pain-staking research but your opinions will likely be more considered and worth reading.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Tue May 22, 2018 5:20 pm

Also see:
UK government launches new clean air strategy; ending sales of conventional diesel and gasoline LDVs by 2040
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25866#p528002
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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LeftieBiker
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Tue May 22, 2018 6:18 pm

That's stalling, at least on the diesel side.
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