LeftieBiker
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 11:54 am

I do think that the manufacturers should be made to take back the older diesels, and give the owners either a substantial credit towards a new gasoline or electric car, or enough cash to buy a decent used one. Europe needs a "Cash for Stinkers" program.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 7:26 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I do think that the manufacturers should be made to take back the older diesels, and give the owners either a substantial credit towards a new gasoline or electric car, or enough cash to buy a decent used one. Europe needs a "Cash for Stinkers" program.


That would also be a viable solution. But unfortunately, I doubt that is part of the settlements that have happened/are in process.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 7:34 pm

SageBrush wrote:
DarthPuppy wrote: And honestly ? Diesel buyers are not exactly victims in this mess. They bought the cars to save a few pennies on petrol and enjoy the diesel torque and were happy to swallow the manufacturer swill about "clean diesel" -- if they cared about pollution at all. I'm not going to lose any sleep over any forced contribution to clean up the mess.


And by the same logic you and all EV drivers belong in prison for child slavery. Careful about assuming guilt of large groups of innocent consumers because you think they should have known something at the time.

"Happy to swallow?" Really? The information at the time, backed up by the EPA stickers and the government watchdogs allowing these cars to be sold, was supportive of these being 'clean diesel'. And it is very plausible argument to fall for. Diesels are well known to get more mpg. Fewer gallons burned should translate to less exhaust. Nice attempt to rewrite history and the motives of lots of people though. Keep drinking that cool-aid.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 7:37 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Yes, we can attempt to blame the makers.


The makers of the cars are to blame. They know this and have tried to hide their guilt. There is no need to "attempt to blame" them.

[quote]

Ah, I see. So society and the automakers have already agreed on this as you have clearly succeeded in blaming them. Good job! Glad to know you solved the problem. You are so right. There is no longer any need to attempt. Mission accomplished.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 7:58 pm

LeftieBiker wrote: You don't seem to understand the magnitude of the problem you want to keep as an interim measure. These engines are killing people every year, in large numbers.

Interesting. I was not aware so many people had murder by car exhaust as a contributing factor on their death certificates. Europe really does have a problem then. Perhaps someone is placing too much faith in 'studies' that are conducted to provide a desired outcome.

Tell me please, how many child slaves does it take to register as an issue for you? Or does the fact that happens in one of Trump's "sh*&%hole" countries mean they don't matter? Do only European lives matter and warrant immediate bans on cars that contribute to the problem?

Put forward a real solution that is fair to the consumer. Bashing innocent consumers because they selected a different car than we did is not a good path forward.

As noted above, I'm agreeable to requiring the automakers being forced to replace with cleaner cars. And I agree the sooner the better. But sadly, apparently, people in Europe don't really care that much about holding the car makers accountable. The political will isn't there to oppose the political power and money of the car makers. Absent that, you haven't put forward a real solution other than to punish innocent consumers. And insisting on punishing diesel owners because they must be evil since they bought a diesel thinking it was better while it is ok to be an EV owner because we aren't evil since we bought it thinking it was better is really quite a double standard.

Also sadly, too many EV owners think they are saints and everyone else should be punished for not following the correct faith. This attitude will alienate the general public and may impede EV adoption. Punishing a large group of innocent consumers is likely to cause a bad political backlash. And I don't seriously believe the automakers are going to be the ones to pay the price for that - they have and always will have too much money and therefore political power for this to be a reality.
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 8:12 pm

People really need to be aware of 'studies' and their 'conclusions'. So-called 'scientists' can design studies to assert whatever they want.

Yes, I'm aware that car exhaust is a serious problem. But if I was so inclined, I could design a study that demonstrates no one is killed. Let me demonstrate.

In most jurisdictions, autopsies are conducted by trained medical professionals. Regulations preclude them from falsifying the cause of death or contributing factors. Therefore, my study has determined that death certificates are the most accurate way to assess whether car exhaust was a contributing factor in someone's death.

I've reviewed a large, statistically valid sampling of the death certificates from the most polluted urban areas in Europe. With the oddball exception of suicide where the person deliberately ran their engine in a closed garage, no death certificates indicated car exhaust as the cause of death or even as a contributing factor.

From this, my study has scientifically demonstrated that car exhaust is not responsible for deaths in Europe.



Now, there are no doubt very sound studies that conclude car exhaust is a contributing factor in x% of deaths in areas with high air pollution. But to grab those and then make claims that diesel car owners are killing people is rather absurd. And good luck convincing them. There are a lot of them and some of them might be registered to vote. If we really piss them off, you can bet many more will register and we will have a huge setback in advancing environmentally friendly policies. Don't treat large parts of the consumer base as the enemy.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 9:38 pm

Rather than raise my blood pressure and wear out my fingers, I'll just point you in the right direction. If you really do think rationally (as opposed to rationalization) you'll get the idea pretty quickly.

https://www.google.comsearch?q=NOx+from+diesel+exhaust+as+a+contributing+factor+to+european+death+rates.&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

EDIT: the Google search result page link is timing out, so here is one of the hits from it:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/15/diesel-emissions-test-scandal-causes-38000-early-deaths-year-study
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SageBrush
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 10:13 pm

DarthPuppy wrote:
Yes, I'm aware that car exhaust is a serious problem. But if I was so inclined, I could design a study that demonstrates no one is killed. Let me demonstrate.

In most jurisdictions, autopsies are conducted by trained medical professionals. Regulations preclude them from falsifying the cause of death or contributing factors. Therefore, my study has determined that death certificates are the most accurate way to assess whether car exhaust was a contributing factor in someone's death.

I've reviewed a large, statistically valid sampling of the death certificates from the most polluted urban areas in Europe. With the oddball exception of suicide where the person deliberately ran their engine in a closed garage, no death certificates indicated car exhaust as the cause of death or even as a contributing factor.

From this, my study has scientifically demonstrated that car exhaust is not responsible for deaths in Europe.

All you have demonstrated is a profound ignorance of epidemiology and the role of autopsies.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 10:22 pm

SageBrush wrote: All you have demonstrated is a profound ignorance of epidemiology and the role of autopsies.


That is what you got from this exercise? So you fail to comprehend that someone can produce a shody study to advocate whatever stance they want to? Even after I've pointed out quite clearly how it can be done? Wow.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 10:38 pm

Why is the fact that shoddy studies can be produced being used by you to assume that studies by reputable groups are therefore shoddy? Are you really going to just deny solid epidemiological research? If so, I've just lost much respect for you...
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