DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Tue May 22, 2018 7:49 pm

Wow, it's pretty clear we disagree on only one real point and still so much bashing on the fluff. My points have been pretty clearly made and yet so much failure to understand and need to attack. I'm guessing you are only reading parts of my posts without understanding what I'm saying and then jumping to respond. So let's make this real simple.

1. Punishing innocent people = bad.
2. Urgent situations (do not =) justification to do bad.
3. Urgent situations = need to do good solutions.
4. Bad actions (see #1) (do not =) good solutions.

There. Now can you see you are in an ethical dilemma?

All I'm saying is the solution put forward is not the right one. Punish the automakers, not some group of consumers who just happen to be a little different than you. Can't you comprehend and respect that?

Are you folks really so angry at innocent diesel owners you will gladly throw them under the bus as an easy solution rather than fight for a real solution?

I'm guessing it boils down to you folks believing that I'm wrong on #2. Do you believe the ends or the good intentions justify the means?

Or is it #4? Do you think bad actions are likely to produce good outcomes?


P.S. - Anybody know how to get the symbol for 'not equal' onto a post?
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LeftieBiker
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Tue May 22, 2018 10:03 pm

1. Punishing innocent people = bad.
2. Urgent situations (do not =) justification to do bad.
3. Urgent situations = need to do good solutions.
4. Bad actions (see #1) (do not =) good solutions.


If you choose to define causing moderate financial harm to diesel owners in order to save the lives of tens of thousands of people with asthma, heart disease, etc as "bad" then of course the rest makes sense. This first principle does not make sense to me, however, or to many others. You seem to have a libertarian mindset: any action that restricts the freedoms or finances of others is "bad," while many actions that cause death are not, because they are done in the service of personal freedom and wealth. This is not my idea of a useful or ethical worldview.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Tue May 22, 2018 10:25 pm

LeftieBiker wrote: If you choose to define causing moderate financial harm to diesel owners in order to save the lives of tens of thousands of people with asthma, heart disease, etc as "bad" then of course the rest makes sense.


Causing harm to diesel owners isn't the only solution!

I can appreciate the desire to stop the harmful health effects. If that is truly happening, then the governments should have no problem funding the replacements of the cars. If the problem is as bad as you say, the savings in their socialized health plans will offset the cost pretty quick. I don't believe a sub group of the population should be singled out to bear the burden.

We would all prefer the automakers who created the problem to bear the burden. Absent that political will, taxpayers. Perhaps if that isn't feasible then a gofundme can set up a non-profit that will replace the cars. Certainly if the problem is as bad and urgent, this will get well funded pretty quick. If you are so set on these being that bad, then go buy the diesels and destroy them yourself. But re-victimizing victims isn't the right solution.

Gee, world hunger is a real problem. Hey I know. Let's have the EV owners pay enough money to solve that problem. We can't wait for a fair solution, people are dying right now. And EV owners obviously have spare cash living their first world lifestyle. After all, causing moderate financial harm to EV owners in order to save people from dying of starvation makes sense. Now can you understand the concept?

There are other solutions that should be pursued. And yes, those can be fast tracked too. Singling out a sub group to punish because it is easier to do is not morally or ethically right.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Tue May 22, 2018 10:30 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:You seem to have a libertarian mindset: any action that restricts the freedoms or finances of others is "bad," while many actions that cause death are not, because they are done in the service of personal freedom and wealth. This is not my idea of a useful or ethical worldview.

Again, you don't seem to read what I'm saying. I've never said that many actions that cause death are not bad. I concur there is a pollution problem that needs to be fixed.

The problem is you can't seem to understand that there can be more than one solution to a problem. And of those options, some are less ethical than others.
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SageBrush
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 1:35 am

I was thinking about asbestos. For quite a while legal, and the choice of building owners who wanted cheap.
When the health effects became common knowledge, laws were passed to protect the public that required abatement.

In DP's world, the landlords are the victims and the tenants should pay.
At least in this country, the landlords typically footed the bill. Not because they were criminals, but because it was their property.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 9:25 am

SageBrush wrote:I was thinking about asbestos. For quite a while legal, and the choice of building owners who wanted cheap.
When the health effects became common knowledge, laws were passed to protect the public that required abatement.


Wow, another rewrite of history. The landlords are evil because they wanted cheap? Newsflash - that stuff was/is frickin' everywhere, including million dollar single family homes. That was how buildings were built during a certain period of time. Way to go at retroactively imputing knowledge. I guess there isn't much history extremists are willing to rewrite to justify targeting those they hate.
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Nubo
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 9:28 am

DarthPuppy wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
DarthPuppy wrote: And honestly ? Diesel buyers are not exactly victims in this mess. They bought the cars to save a few pennies on petrol and enjoy the diesel torque and were happy to swallow the manufacturer swill about "clean diesel" -- if they cared about pollution at all. I'm not going to lose any sleep over any forced contribution to clean up the mess.


And by the same logic you and all EV drivers belong in prison for child slavery. Careful about assuming guilt of large groups of innocent consumers because you think they should have known something at the time.

"Happy to swallow?" Really? The information at the time, backed up by the EPA stickers and the government watchdogs allowing these cars to be sold, was supportive of these being 'clean diesel'. And it is very plausible argument to fall for. Diesels are well known to get more mpg. Fewer gallons burned should translate to less exhaust. Nice attempt to rewrite history and the motives of lots of people though. Keep drinking that cool-aid.

As a cyclist who had to breathe the stuff, I never bought into the “clean diesel” bullshit.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 9:40 am

SageBrush wrote:In DP's world, the landlords are the victims and the tenants should pay.
At least in this country, the landlords typically footed the bill. Not because they were criminals, but because it was their property.

Um no. Everyone in this situation is the victim. BTW - The companies selling that stuff are still paying on that, but probably not as much as they should be. Again you haven't understood hardly a thing I've posted.

At this point, it is clear either two scenarios are at play here.
1. Either I've disturbed a nest of environmental extremists who are blinded by their hate of diesel owners they can't recognize their favored solution might not be the best option. But hey, it's an opportunity to kick a group they hate, so in their mind, it is a good one. If this is the case, clearly no amount of logic will likely be productive here. Sorry for disturbing you in your echo chamber.
2. I'm being trolled. If so, well played.

Either way, I will now leave you two alone on this topic.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 9:41 am

Nubo wrote: As a cyclist who had to breathe the stuff, I never bought into the “clean diesel” bullshit.


Congrats on being ahead of the curve in realizing diesels weren't as clean as we were told.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Wed May 23, 2018 11:44 am

I didn't think about it much, but when told here that all of that converter burnoff and urea injection stuff was obsolete, I didn't really believe it either. That kind of revolution in technology gets explained by scientists, not car manufacturer ads. I figured it was like the old Ford scandal, where the cars were equipped with pollution controls that worked ok for just as long as the warranty lasted, and then failed without the car dying.

Seriously, if you don't have Netflix folks, ask to watch "Hard NOx" at the house of someone who does. The journalist who made the documentary was one of the people burned by VW: he and his wife loved their VW diesel wagon, and thought they were helping the environment by driving a "clean diesel." Finding out that it was a rolling death machine was a real shock to them. And finding out what VW did to get the #1 car sales title was horrifying.

Darth, as you slowly fall back to a more defensible position, keep in mind that I've been suggesting manufacturer buybacks and payments. Banning diesels from urban areas isn't the same as confiscating the cars and laughing at the owners while denying them any compensation. That idea is largely of your own imagining.
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