Sierra Club "Nine Myths About EVs"

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Unfortunately it tries to debunk a myth by repeating the myth about electricity being cheap. They quote the price of $0.12/kwh without mentioning that California consumers will are more likely to pay $0.38/kwh for any additional electricity they use. It appears the Sierra club is really no different in cherry picking the scenarios that favor their political goals. I happen to share the goal of reducing our dependency on oil, but this is really stretching the truth, particularly since the Sierra club advocated for the rapidly escalating electricity prices in order to discourage usage.
 
Googler said:
Unfortunately it tries to debunk a myth by repeating the myth about electricity being cheap. They quote the price of $0.12/kwh without mentioning that California consumers will are more likely to pay $0.38/kwh for any additional electricity they use. It appears the Sierra club is really no different in cherry picking the scenarios that favor their political goals. I happen to share the goal of reducing our dependency on oil, but this is really stretching the truth, particularly since the Sierra club advocated for the rapidly escalating electricity prices in order to discourage usage.
Click to expand...
Many California utility companies are planning on offering EV rate programs to evaluate charge patterns. For instance San Diego Gas & Electric will be offering an experimental rate structure. If I charge during prime time it is $.38 per kilowatt hour. If I charge during super-off peak (midnight to 5AM) the rate is around $.07. We will not drive far enough daily to require more than 5 hours charge per night. At that rate, our energy use will be 40% less than whatever the Sierra Club reports. Also, they use $3 per gallon for gas. In San Diego tonight I just paid $3.79 for regular grade gasoline. I do not belong to the Sierra club.
 
Googler said:
Unfortunately it tries to debunk a myth by repeating the myth about electricity being cheap. They quote the price of $0.12/kwh without mentioning that California consumers will are more likely to pay $0.38/kwh for any additional electricity they use.
Click to expand...
The United States does not stop at the California border.

You're right, though - the SC really messed up. 12 cents is way too high. We have 11 cents a kWh 24/7 here. :lol:
 
Electricity is also sold outside the United States. In Germany it costs about $0.30 per kwh using today's conversion rate to the euro and the data at http://www.energy.eu/#Domestic.

The point is that electricity prices vary widely from one market to another - much more than gasoline.
 
Googler said:
Electricity is also sold outside the United States. In Germany it costs about $0.30 per kwh using today's conversion rate to the euro and the data at http://www.energy.eu/#Domestic.

The point is that electricity prices vary widely from one market to another - much more than gasoline.
Click to expand...
But we don't live in Europe, right? When I lived in England, I heated the oil-filled radiators overnight at the off-peak rates. Prices were a bit better in Germany. I didn't use much electricity when I lived in Korea so can't recall the prices there.

The price variation is accounted for when one uses "average price". And the national average in the United States is reported to be in the 12 cent per kWh range. The SC accounted for variation though:
(assuming $.12 per kilowatt hour though rates vary throughout the country)
Click to expand...
The good news is that we are all free to relocate to another area if we dislike the price of electricity in our current location. We're also free to disconnect from the grid and provide our own energy if we choose. It's a beautiful thing - possibilities are endless!

As for gasoline prices? You just said that because you know I need a good early morning giggle, right? Thank you! Now I don't feel so bad when I think about the $3.49 per gallon diesel fuel up the street. In the San Antonio area this morning, Diesel ranges between $3.45 and $3.99 a gallon.

gojuice.jpg

http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx

Regular gasoline - Yessiree - them's some uniform prices, right there! :lol:
 
Googler said:
Unfortunately I am a PG&E customer.
Click to expand...
Why unfortunately? PG&E offers two rates tailored for EVs. Both give you 75 hours/week of "off-peak" rates One, which requires no additional expense in equipment (other than your charging dock, if you decide you need it and can't get it free) puts the whole house on a time-of-day schedule with off-peak rates from 5 cents to 18 cents per kWh depending on how much you use. The other keeps your house on the existing rate, and uses a second meter for the car with rates which are effectively from 6 cents to 20 cents per kWh, but does involve some up-front costs. (Actually, with the second plan there are rates up to 32 cents per kWh, but you would have to have a battery nearly twice as big as the LEAF to even see 20 cents as an average. You'd probably have to drive more than about 50 miles a day to get your average over 10 cents per kWh.)

Ray
 
PG&E Standard (E1) rates just went up on 3/1/11. TIER 3 and 4 went up, lower tiers unchanged.

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf

Looks like EV (E9) rates also went up slightly?

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-9.pdf

I expect my average PG&E KWH charge to drop from the present 12.3 cents to about 9 cents if IF I ever get an EV (May delivery???) and switch to E9A.

I never go above tier one now. Even with an EV added to the meter, I won't go over (same rate) tier 2.

I also expect to keep my peak use modest. So I think I will be able to keep my annual Non-EV use to about 12 cents average cost, and my EV use to under 6 cents (though this might be tough without a L2 charger).

A major bonus for me, is that I have a geothermal heat pump, which I now use for AC and water heating in the summer, but rarely use in the Winter, since firewood is "free". But with the less than 6 cent off peak winter rate, It will be very cheap (compared to the cost of propane I now use in my water heater) to run the heat pump to heat BOTH my home and water in Winter.

I think the lesson here, is that the maximum benefit from PG&E E9 rates, you need both an efficient home, and an efficient vehicle. Not a bad idea, IMO.

And I expect the economics of the grid will lead most other utilities to offer similar rate plans in the future.
 
ah no matter what any article says, someone will have something to complain about. sure if electricity is too expensive in your area, move.

i went from So Cal to the Bay Area to Olympia Wa. did the last move 25 years ago. do you know that right now, i am making about 10% more money than i was when working in Redwood City...ya, 25 years and not even making a buck an hour more than i was back in the 80's.

now granted two things happened that lowered my income. i did make a conscious decision to work locally. that was a cut and then my company did a pay realignment which was another 30% drop. now they have instituted a bonus program (geared towards working overtime so in a sense is open-ended if you have nothing better to do but work) that has gotten back 10-15% of that paycut, but the fact is, in Cali, you make a lot more money in most cases so you can pay those higher bills. that Sir is the price of rice!

Currently my combined household income is about $15,000 over my best year in Cali, so ya i pay 10 cents per KWH, but i realistically could not really afford to pay higher and in my area, we are paying higher than most people.
 
AndyH said:
Regular gasoline - Yessiree - them's some uniform prices, right there! :lol:
Click to expand...

The cost of the product does not really vary that much, but the taxes applied to that product is what varies from state to state and county to county. Pretty clear from that map which states have a higher gas tax.

Not quite as much variation as gas tax, sales tax in CA can really sting in the purchase of a new car.

In California, sales tax ranges from 8.25 to 10.75. Somebody who lives in San Bernadino county would pay 8.75 tax and a person from Pico Rivera or Southgate in LA county would pay 10.75 when purchasing the same car from Cerritos Nissan.
 
the map would imply that Cali has the highest gas tax in the nation and that would be wrong. WA State does. they were the highest 4 years ago and are in the process of adding another 9½ cents to that total. not sure where we are at now, but we have been kings for ever. now because of the recession, the increased taxes which were supposed to be phased in over 3 years (originally scheduled to be completed this year) were delayed. not up on the new time table, so we are not even at where we are supposed to be.

we also lead highest minimum wage, highest cigarette tax (its about $9 a pack for premium brands) and highest level of satisfaction over our surroundings.

ok, well maybe that last one is debatable. now what Cali does do well is adding taxes to taxes. the "taxes on the taxes" does push Cali to the top but only because of accounting differences. we still pay more, its just the "other taxes" etc, cost is not added to the cost of gasoline. but i can assure you, inspection, regulation, etc of gasoline is not free here

http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/Gasoline_Diesel_Summary.pdf

**edit** sales tax is a killer in WA as well but we dont have state income tax. now we did not get the $5,000 cali rebate, but did get the sales tax exemption on the Leaf purchase. that saved me over $3000
 
Googler said:
Electricity is also sold outside the United States. In Germany it costs about $0.30 per kwh using today's conversion rate to the euro and the data at http://www.energy.eu/#Domestic.

The point is that electricity prices vary widely from one market to another - much more than gasoline.
Click to expand...
And the price of gasoline in Germany is?
 
LEAFguy said:
Googler said:
Unfortunately it tries to debunk a myth by repeating the myth about electricity being cheap. They quote the price of $0.12/kwh without mentioning that California consumers will are more likely to pay $0.38/kwh for any additional electricity they use. It appears the Sierra club is really no different in cherry picking the scenarios that favor their political goals. I happen to share the goal of reducing our dependency on oil, but this is really stretching the truth, particularly since the Sierra club advocated for the rapidly escalating electricity prices in order to discourage usage.
Click to expand...
Many California utility companies are planning on offering EV rate programs to evaluate charge patterns. For instance San Diego Gas & Electric will be offering an experimental rate structure. If I charge during prime time it is $.38 per kilowatt hour. If I charge during super-off peak (midnight to 5AM) the rate is around $.07. We will not drive far enough daily to require more than 5 hours charge per night. At that rate, our energy use will be 40% less than whatever the Sierra Club reports. Also, they use $3 per gallon for gas. In San Diego tonight I just paid $3.79 for regular grade gasoline. I do not belong to the Sierra club.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with Leafguy. :)
 
palmermd said:
AndyH said:
Regular gasoline - Yessiree - them's some uniform prices, right there! :lol:
Click to expand...

The cost of the product does not really vary that much, but the taxes applied to that product is what varies from state to state and county to county. Pretty clear from that map which states have a higher gas tax.
Click to expand...
I can't speak to the price differences, but there are a number of different gasoline formulations used across the country. The CARB states have the strongest emissions standards and require the more expensive fuels to produce.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/gasoline.htm
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/reformulated_gasoline.html
 

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