AndyH
Posts: 6325
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Oil facts - compilation

Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:37 am

Caracalover wrote:
Herm wrote:
Caracalover wrote:NG fracking not only uses large amounts of water, it may pollute the ground water and lay vast areas wasteland, we will see in the not to distant future me thinks.


The key word in your statement is MAY

<snip>

The key word is not May. The key word is pollute. Fracking pollutes, no question about that. Whether it will contaminate the ground water (rendering areas unlivable) or not remains to be seen.

Absolutely Caracolover! There is plenty of proof available that shows everything from ill effects of pumping station emissions on the local area, the negative effects of produced water seeping into the ground or overflowing during rain, and the very real destruction of drinking water sources when wells are not properly installed/cemented.

An additional challenge is highlighted by the conflicting needs in South Texas as the industry tries to develop the Eagle Ford shale during a severe drought. The gas developers are working hard to acquire water rights from towns and farmers/ranchers - locals are being presented with an option to trade their current/future water supply and/or farm productivity for cash.

And if water isn't a factor, I wonder why Boone Pickens has become the largest single controller of water rights in the Texas panhandle? ;)

THANK YOU for putting facts ahead of spin!

edit...this factoid from EarthJustice this evening:
How bad is the air? In the drilling
rig-studded Upper Green River Basin
of Wyoming, levels of smog-forming
ozone reached 123 parts per billion
earlier this year—worse than the worst day in L.A. all last year.


Dear Andyh,
16,945.
That's how many Earthjustice supporters have already written to the Environmental Protection Agency asking for strong air pollution protections from oil and gas development.
But EPA needs to hear from many more of us. Help us send 30,000 letters to EPA—sending a clear message that we need to clean up the air in areas of the country undergoing a massive drilling boom.

How bad is the air in these areas? Well in the drilling rig-studded Upper Green River Basin of Wyoming, levels of smog-forming ozone reached 123 parts per billion earlier this year—worse than the worst day in Los Angeles all last year.

It's not just the people of Wyoming who are noticing a problem. A controversial technology called hydraulic fracturing—or fracking—has led to a gas drilling boom from Colorado to Pennsylvania. But federal air pollution protections for drilling are woefully outdated and do not cover most pollution sources. That means that people who live near the gasfields are left with lung-burning smog and cancer-causing benzene.

With your help, we can start changing that. Under a set of rules proposed by the Environmental Protection Agency, oil and gas drillers would be required to use equipment to capture significant amounts of air pollution before it can harm public health.

We have just two weeks left to make our voices heard. Will you join thousands of others in sending a message to EPA? Send your letter: http://action.earthjustice.org/site/Advocacy?pagename=homepage&page=UserAction&id=1187

Thank you,
— Earthjustice

Because the earth needs a good lawyer.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison

2015 smart Electric Drive "The Bumblebee"
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

AP1
Posts: 158
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 8:59 am

Re: Oil facts - compilation

Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:00 pm

My apologies if this paper has been previously discussed. I couldn't find it in this thread. It's the most comprehensive analysis of the energy required to go from well to wheel that I've seen so far. It was written by the Argonne National Laboratory Transportation and R & D Center. It is quite lengthy and there's lots of info about green house gases as well as energy. If I understood it correctly, one of their graphs (page 25) shows that an ICE uses approximately 5200 btu for a mile of travel while an ev uses about 3000. Take a look.

[url]greet.es.anl.gov/files/ea30hyon[/url]

User avatar
drees
Moderator
Posts: 6204
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Oil facts - compilation

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:42 pm


The paper indicates that the well-to-pump efficiency for gasoline is around 80%. So if a gallon of gas has 36.6 kWh of energy in it, about 9 kWh of energy was spent to get it in your car's gas tank (~45 kWh * 80% = ~36 kWh).
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

Caracalover
Posts: 560
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 0567
Location: Tujunga
Contact: Website

Re: Oil facts - compilation

Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:33 am

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... sNewsThird

More on this terrible stuff called gasoline.
26,000 miles on Silver Leaf
wildcatzoo.org drive there on Sunday across a big mountain, sorry no public charging at this time.
Looking for grants to put in solar port so perhaps in the future...

Herm
Posts: 3765
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 3:08 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Aug 2012
Location: Timbuktu, Mali

Re: Oil facts - compilation

Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:12 am

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/11 ... 11109.html

"Preliminary findings from a study on the use of hydraulic fracturing in shale gas development suggest no direct link to reports of groundwater contamination, according to project leader Dr. Charles ‘Chip’ Groat, of The University of Texas at Austin’s Energy Institute. Rather, Groat said, many of the problems appear to be related to other aspects of drilling operations, such as poor casing or cement jobs."

AndyH
Posts: 6325
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Oil facts - compilation

Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:05 pm

Herm wrote:http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/11/groat-20111109.html

"Preliminary findings from a study on the use of hydraulic fracturing in shale gas development suggest no direct link to reports of groundwater contamination, according to project leader Dr. Charles ‘Chip’ Groat, of The University of Texas at Austin’s Energy Institute. Rather, Groat said, many of the problems appear to be related to other aspects of drilling operations, such as poor casing or cement jobs."

Absolutely Herm - and we've talked about just this in other threads here. As long as 'they' can break the entire process into small enough pieces in order to trivialize any complaints... How many wells drilled into the various shale plays will not need to be cemented? And how many will not be hydrofractured? And how many of the frack jobs will not create highly polluted produced water? And how many of those wells will be drilled thru a water table to reach the gas? Etc...

'Deconstruction' might be a convenient way to evade blame, but it's not a responsible, moral, or ethical way to do business.

UT-Austin is pretty highly respected around these parts - I hope they produce a high quality finished product when the study is complete.

edit...
Well, even well respected researchers can have a bad day when they have conflicts of interest. This 'study' is junk.

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/morning_call/2012/12/university-of-texas-making-changes-in.html
http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/12/07/why-the-ut-fracking-study-controversy-matters/
http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/12/06/review-of-ut-fracking-study-finds-failure-to-disclose-conflict-of-interest/
Last edited by AndyH on Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison

2015 smart Electric Drive "The Bumblebee"
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

Caracalover
Posts: 560
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 0567
Location: Tujunga
Contact: Website

Re: Oil facts - compilation

Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:15 pm

http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric#electricity

Tesla made a nice page, check it out!
26,000 miles on Silver Leaf
wildcatzoo.org drive there on Sunday across a big mountain, sorry no public charging at this time.
Looking for grants to put in solar port so perhaps in the future...

kikngas
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:19 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Sep 2014
Leaf Number: 310377
Location: SE Minnesota

Re: Oil facts - compilation

Sun May 21, 2017 10:13 am

Sorry it took me so long to find this thread. I have put numbers to this more recently. I've linked the various sources of info. and thought it would make a nice edition to this resource thread. I am the biggest EV fan. But I feel it is important we be accurate in our comparisons and statements about gasoline etc.

I conclude that Elon Musk, Nissan, etc. are incorrect in their assertions that the EV could go as far on the energy used in refining. In the final well-to-wheels analysis they may be about right, but not with the numbers they say drew them to the conclusion. (many of the same numbers used in this discussion thread)

The key mis-step is the conversion of thermal kWh to electricity kWh. When EIA reports refinery efficiency, they are really talking about BTUs, not kWh. It is unfortunate that scientists that study such things use the units rather interchangeably. But you really have to think of those BTUs are going in to a power plant somewhere and how much electricity you would get out of that energy input. I used coal in my scenario, but the energy numbers work out about the same with natural gas (pollution and CO2 numbers, that's another story).

As for the actual electricity inputs in to the refineries, another way to look at it is to ask how many EVs you fuel. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the figures EIA publishes are for the whole refinery and all distillates. Not just gasoline. But it gives you an idea of the scale of what is consumed by the refineries.

One fact many neglect to point out, that is so simple everyone can understand it is:
Over the life of my EV the electric grid is getting cleaner, the petroleum cycle is not.

https://www.quora.com/profile/Mark-Pottorff/Posts/Lets-clear-the-air-Elon-Musk-is-mistaken-you-cannot-drive-a-Tesla-20-miles-on-the-energy-used-to-refine-a-gallon-o
https://www.quora.com/If-you-stop-refining-oil-how-many-EVs-could-you-fuel-with-the-saved-electricity/answer/Mark-Pottorff

https://www.quora.com/profile/Mark-Pottorff/Posts/How-to-fuel-your-car-for-a-dollar-per-gallon-%E2%80%94-How-EVs-and-solar-power-combine-for-a-cleaner-future
https://www.quora.com/If-all-the-cars-in-the-world-were-electric-how-much-would-the-world-electricity-demand-increase/answer/Mark-Pottorff

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-electric-car-owners-dont-account-for-the-coal-plants-generating-the-electricity-for-the-cars/answer/Mark-Pottorff

https://www.quora.com/What-do-you-think-of-Richard-Mullers-criticism-of-electric-cars/answer/Mark-Pottorff

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 5589
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Oil facts - compilation

Sun May 21, 2017 3:53 pm

Excellent, well-considered posts, Mark! Thanks for writing them and sharing them here.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

Return to “Environmental Issues”