Caracalover
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Re: Oil facts - compilation

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:12 am

http://www.solarchargeddriving.com/news ... 3k.twitter

This article states: "It takes more electricity to drive the average gasoline car 100 miles than it does to drive an electric car 100 miles."

It also has a lot of proof to back up the statement.
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AP1
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Re: Oil facts - compilation

Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:32 am

Let me get this straight now. If I hear you all correctly, if we could magically turn off all gasoline refining in the US and magically turn all cars to run on electricity, we would still have electric capacity left over because of the electric needs of the refining process?

Smidge204
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Re: Oil facts - compilation

Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:30 am

AP1 wrote:Let me get this straight now. If I hear you all correctly, if we could magically turn off all gasoline refining in the US and magically turn all cars to run on electricity, we would still have electric capacity left over because of the electric needs of the refining process?

Not sure about peak demand, but on the whole... that just might be possible.

Even with conservative numbers, you can drive as far in an EV with the energy needed to refine one gallon of gasoline as you could drive in a normal car burning that same gallon. That does not account for all the pumping and transporting that uses even more energy, nor for the energy use of the facilities themselves - just refining. Of course we need to keep refining oil for other things, not just fuel products...


dgpcolorado wrote:It is worth considering that refineries also use a lot of natural gas in the refining process. That NG could be used to make electricity instead.

That NG could be used for heavy vehicles instead, or residential/commercial heating to displace fuel oil which is still quite popular here in the Northeast US.
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dgpcolorado
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Re: Oil facts - compilation

Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:00 am

AP1 wrote:Let me get this straight now. If I hear you all correctly, if we could magically turn off all gasoline refining in the US and magically turn all cars to run on electricity, we would still have electric capacity left over because of the electric needs of the refining process?
Only in theory. Refining tends to be clustered in certain areas of the country while EV charging will be widely dispersed. So, the power saved by reduced gasoline refining needs will not necessarily be available where it is most needed to charge EVs.

But the general idea appears to be correct. And that sure quashes the "long tailpipe" argument that is so often used to bash EVs, does it not?
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dgpcolorado
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Re: Oil facts - compilation

Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:04 am

Smidge204 wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote:It is worth considering that refineries also use a lot of natural gas in the refining process. That NG could be used to make electricity instead.

That NG could be used for heavy vehicles instead, or residential/commercial heating to displace fuel oil which is still quite popular here in the Northeast US.
=Smidge=
Yes. That would be an even better use of the NG. I mentioned that the NG could be used to produce electricity because, in effect, it means that even more electricity could be displaced by eliminating the refining of oil into gasoline.
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Nekota
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Re: Oil facts - compilation

Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:55 am

Caracalover wrote:http://www.solarchargeddriving.com/news/scd-editorials/831-surprise-gas-cars-use-more-electricity-than-evs.html#.Tpe2JClpX3k.twitter

This article states: "It takes more electricity to drive the average gasoline car 100 miles than it does to drive an electric car 100 miles."

It also has a lot of proof to back up the statement.


From the article
Thus, using an 85% refinery efficiency and the aforementioned conversion factors, it can be estimated that about 21,000 Btu—the equivalent of 6 kWh—of energy are used per gallon of gasoline refined.


The 6KWHr of energy is not electricity but heat and is converted to electricity without regard to thermodynamics so I discount the entire article. :roll:

So does anyone have an actual electric demand or KWHr used for an oil refinery?
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TRONZ
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Re: Oil facts - compilation

Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:21 am

Nekota wrote:So does anyone have an actual electric demand or KWHr used for an oil refinery?


The concept is sound but VERY complicated. To be accurate it also requires the well to wheels approach to oil production. EX: The electricity used to produce the oil that makes gasoline for all the tanker ships, tanker trucks, etc in the oil industry should be included. Someone would have to do an electrical audit on the entire Oil Industry from exploration to the gas pump motor. Then divide this total by the amount of actual gasoline produced for transportation (that could be replaced with EV's). Then you would need to somehow total the number of miles people drove on that transportation gasoline. This would provide the basics of a miles per Kw equivelant for this gasoline and base number to compare with EV's. The data collection would be huge and far reaching!
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Caracalover
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Re: Oil facts - compilation

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:33 pm

AP1 wrote:Let me get this straight now. If I hear you all correctly, if we could magically turn off all gasoline refining in the US and magically turn all cars to run on electricity, we would still have electric capacity left over because of the electric needs of the refining process?

We would also have more potable water, since to refine oil it requires large amounts of that as well. Part of the electric consumption in California refineries is to get water to the site, raising that states KW per gallon refined to 8 or so.

NG fracking not only uses large amounts of water, it may pollute the ground water and lay vast areas wasteland, we will see in the not to distant future me thinks. I know people that live in the areas where fracking is going on, and trust me, they are not happy, and healthy anymore. Strange rashes they never had before, trouble breathing, the whole nine yards. Makes me feel bad that I drive a NG vehicle at work.
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Herm
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Re: Oil facts - compilation

Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:16 pm

Caracalover wrote:NG fracking not only uses large amounts of water, it may pollute the ground water and lay vast areas wasteland, we will see in the not to distant future me thinks.


The key word in your statement is MAY

Be careful when you talk about the electricity consumption that refineries use to make fuel.. its not really all 100% electricity.. refineries use a lot of NG to make hydrogen (for upgrading fuels, the opposite of cracking) and for process heat, but if that NG was used instead to make electricity then it is counted as such.. not sure if the studies allow for the various transportation and oil production costs. Diesel, gasoline, tar sands, CTL/GTL and ethanol all have different energy needs.

Caracalover
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Re: Oil facts - compilation

Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:26 pm

Herm wrote:
Caracalover wrote:NG fracking not only uses large amounts of water, it may pollute the ground water and lay vast areas wasteland, we will see in the not to distant future me thinks.


The key word in your statement is MAY

Be careful when you talk about the electricity consumption that refineries use to make fuel.. its not really all 100% electricity.. refineries use a lot of NG to make hydrogen (for upgrading fuels, the opposite of cracking) and for process heat, but if that NG was used instead to make electricity then it is counted as such.. not sure if the studies allow for the various transportation and oil production costs. Diesel, gasoline, tar sands, CTL/GTL and ethanol all have different energy needs.

The key word is not May. The key word is pollute. Fracking pollutes, no question about that. Whether it will contaminate the ground water (rendering areas unlivable) or not remains to be seen. Careful speech has allowed the oil industry and others to destroy many areas, and now they are moving into rural America. It does not need to be that way, and an increased use of electric powered vehicles is a solution that is here now, not in some distant future like hydrogen fuel cells, which are currently a joke.

Also , when the nay sayers talk about the electricity needed to supply my Leaf, they are not careful, so no, I will not be too careful. It is not a lie, and it is far closer to the truth than the spin the oil industry markets.

It is really quite obvious - the EV is a better use of energy than burning anything (Even if you have to burn something to make the electricity). If you doubt that, you have blinders on.
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