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TomT
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:46 am

"Ethanol requirements for U.S. gasoline appear to be losing friends and influencing the wrong people, with calls growing to reform or scrap the government mandates altogether."

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AndyH
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:13 am

evnow wrote:
lkkms2 wrote:Many people have been mislead against ethanol by PR paid for by the oil industry. I see it all over the place and it is often repeated in error. Oil price increases cause food prices to go up, much more so than ethanol.

No we haven't been fooled by PR from oil industry. You can search here for detailed discussions on the ills of ethonol - basically a scam to suck $40 Billion in subsidies.

I'd like to see the accounting on subsidies, evnow, if it's easy.

What's been published on this board - and in this thread - are not actual 'ills' of ethanol - they're propaganda from primarily the oil industry (actually the fuel industry...) against any non-petroleum fuel.

As others have said - this will be a good thing only when ALL fuel subsidies are dropped - especially the cash given to 100+ year old industries that are not only mature but have one foot in an assisted care facility!

The federal government provided substantially larger subsidies to fossil fuels than to
renewables. Subsidies to fossil fuels—a mature, developed industry that has enjoyed
government support for many years—totaled approximately $72 billion over the study
period, representing a direct cost to taxpayers.

http://www.eli.org/sites/default/files/eli-pubs/d19_07.pdf

blacknotgreen.jpg


This is a win for the American Petroleum Institute and Big Oil - not for us 'little people'.

http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/
http://www.eli.org/research-report/estimating-us-government-subsidies-energy-sources-2002-2008-0
http://www.eli.org/sites/default/files/eli-pubs/d19_07.pdf
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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:44 am

Not everyone shares the view that big oil enjoys "subsidies"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackm ... r-big-oil/

Bottom line: Despite the Administration’s rhetoric that has been so widely repeated in the press, the tax treatments in question are not “subsidies” that are in any way outside of the mainstream of tax treatments commonly available to all U.S. industries.


I imagine if XOM gets a tax credit or takes capital depreciation for upgrading to energy-efficient lighting in one of their office buildings, environmentalists would count it as a "tax break for big oil".
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prebson
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:38 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:Not everyone shares the view that big oil enjoys "subsidies"

I imagine if XOM gets a tax credit or takes capital depreciation for upgrading to energy-efficient lighting in one of their office buildings, environmentalists would count it as a "tax break for big oil".


And I imagine that Big Oil would not. IMHO if it's a tax benefit to them, it's a tax benefit to them. Just like if I chose to take the tax break it would be a tax benefit to me.

...pretty much no one in the news media ever reports on the subject accurately.


I would imagine that WSJ does not include themselves in this accusation.

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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:03 pm

prebson wrote:IMHO if it's a tax benefit to them, it's a tax benefit to them. Just like if I chose to take the tax break it would be a tax benefit to me.

True, but this isn't how it is framed.

From everything I've heard, saying that oil companies are subsidized is sort of like saying that murder is subsidized because OJ Simpson was able to take the standard deduction.
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dhanson865
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:37 pm

AndyH wrote:This is a win for the American Petroleum Institute and Big Oil - not for us 'little people'.


Last I checked 98% of us little people are still put gasoline in our cars (I'm thinking diesel is still more used than anything else in the "other" category).

I'd be OK with it if you said it was a win for big oil that happened to also help people that own cars with gas engines.

I sure know I've avoided putting E10 in my Prius and I'd like to see less ethanol in the supply chain going forward.

I'd be happy to see the ethanol mix back down to 5% max (same as Canada) and see Mexico move to 5% also (they are currently at 6%)

Even nicer if they go to E4 max (like Ireland) or E3 max (to be the lowest federal limit on ethanol)
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:38 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:Not everyone shares the view that big oil enjoys "subsidies"

Of COURSE Forbes doesn't agree. :lol:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:I imagine if XOM gets a tax credit or takes capital depreciation for upgrading to energy-efficient lighting in one of their office buildings, environmentalists would count it as a "tax break for big oil".

You'd imagine incorrectly. If you check the reports on what subsidy-watchers call tax breaks and subsidies to the fossil fuel industry, you'll find that they are the ones that go above and beyond 'regular business expenses' available to all from sole-proprietors to supercorps.

Even without including the stupid levels of blood we spill to maintain foreign oil fields, we've been dumping TONS of cash on oil for more than 100 years. At some point we might consider that mature industries with higher cash flow rates than many countries probably don't need taxpayer-funded 'aid to dependent CEOs' any longer...
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AndyH
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:22 pm

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ydnas7
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:47 pm

GPowers wrote:I can not imagine how the starving countries around the world look at americans that burn food to fuel our cars and they can not get food.


Its probably similar to how they look at the Chinese wasting valuable land to grow tea or bamboo.
or how they look at the Finns wasting valuable land to grow timber.
or how they look at the Dutch wasting valuable land to grow flowers
or how they look at Malaysia/Indonesia wating valuable land to grow rubber.

using corn for ethanol is just like any other cash crop. Its a natural idea for many in less devloped countries. American/European's may find it strange, but its quite normal.

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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:24 pm

AndyH wrote:


I'm thinking solar panels and EVs will keep money away from the middle east more than buying ethanol laced gasoline will.

He thinks big oil doesn't want us buying ethanol, betcha they have similar or stronger objections to us using electricity in place of gas.
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