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evnow
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:25 pm

ydnas7 wrote:
GPowers wrote:I can not imagine how the starving countries around the world look at americans that burn food to fuel our cars and they can not get food.


Its probably similar to how they look at the Chinese wasting valuable land to grow tea or bamboo.
or how they look at the Finns wasting valuable land to grow timber.
or how they look at the Dutch wasting valuable land to grow flowers
or how they look at Malaysia/Indonesia wating valuable land to grow rubber.

using corn for ethanol is just like any other cash crop. Its a natural idea for many in less devloped countries. American/European's may find it strange, but its quite normal.

That is not the issue.

Issue is that corn prices go up making it difficult for poor people to feed themselves.

Ofcourse, ethanol doesn't "save" any oil since a lot of oil goes into growing and making ethanol. Most ethanol has negative EROEI, which is the crux of the problem.
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:46 pm

evnow wrote:Issue is that corn prices go up making it difficult for poor people to feed themselves.

Ofcourse, ethanol doesn't "save" any oil since a lot of oil goes into growing and making ethanol. Most ethanol has negative EROEI, which is the crux of the problem.


The EROEI of the solar PV on my roof would be woeful compared to the EROEI of the solar hotwater on my roof. But the solar PV displaces full price electricity whereas the solar hotwater displaces off off peak tariff electricity. Eitherway, the solar energy collectors on my roof reduce the amount of money leaving my house and has good economic benefits. EROEI is generally an academic kpi, best used for comparing like with like, EROEI is not even particulary relevant for comparing solar PV to solar hot water.

Apart from sunlight, the energy inputs for USA ethanol is primarily natural gas, or to a lesser extent coal. Effectively its an agricultural way to displace global priced oil with domestically produced natural gas or coal. To the extent that reduced price competition for global oil assists poor people to feed for themselves, then its likely that USA ethanol production helps the global hungry to feed themselves. For Eg, Food spoilage is a major lose of food in poor countries (1/4 to 1/2 of food is lost due to spoilage in some regions), reducing the cost and time its takes to gets food to market is key. Simialy nitorgen fertiliser is generally produced using natural gas. As USA natural gas is decoupled from world gas price, but American oil use is coupled to world oil price and therfore world gas price, the reduction in world oil price that USA ethanol production produces helps lower the price that world pays for fertiliser.

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evnow
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:51 pm

ydnas7 wrote:
The EROEI of the solar PV on my roof would be woeful compared to the EROEI of the solar hotwater on my roof.

PV's EROEI is positive, unlike most of ethanol.

To the extent that reduced price competition for global oil assists poor people to feed for themselves, then its likely that USA ethanol production helps the global hungry to feed themselves.

There is quite a bit of proof that ethanol increased corn prices - and nothing that says ethanol decreased oil prices.
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:45 pm

how do you prove that ethanol increased corn prices without a control world where everything other than an ethanol mandate is held constant?
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:44 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:how do you prove that ethanol increased corn prices without a control world where everything other than an ethanol mandate is held constant?


I suggest the better question is how can one prove/disprove then connection between an importer's demand for foreign oil and global price of food?l

China has transitioned from being a somewhat irrelevant oil exporter/importer to being the worlds 2nd largest oil importer, the sooner America stops having to bid for oil against the Chinese, the better it is for All oil buyers, particulary poorer regions.

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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:10 pm

dhanson865 wrote:
AndyH wrote:


I'm thinking solar panels and EVs will keep money away from the middle east more than buying ethanol laced gasoline will.

He thinks big oil doesn't want us buying ethanol, betcha they have similar or stronger objections to us using electricity in place of gas.

Speaking as a veteran and as a supporter of the VoteVets campaign, I have to disagree with your position.

Most of the oil we consume is converted to liquid fuel for transportation, not used to generate electricity. The oil we burn for energy is mostly heating oil. Wind and solar are critical, as is electrification of transportation - absolutely! But it's really important to remember that in the real world of today we have tens of thousands dead or maimed to bring us oil - and we've been trading blood for oil since before WWII.

"He thinks" big oil is fighting fuel ethanol because the facts and history bear that out - it's not a belief and there's a long trail of court records and other documents that support those facts.

As for big oil VS EVs - you might want to start with the legal findings against GM, Goodyear, and at least one oil company for buying electric trains and converting them to GM buses. Then there's that "who killed the electric car" thing...

Maybe the question should be turned on you - why do you believe so strongly that we should send our kids to secure foreign oil fields?
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:14 pm

evnow wrote:PV's EROEI is positive, unlike most of ethanol.

Incorrect as has been proven and posted on this forum multiple times. The ONLY studies that show a negative ROI for ethanol were published by two researchers that were on oil company payrolls at the time. ALL legitimate fuel ethanol studies show a positive EROEI.

Yes - our current AGRICULTURE system is awash in petroleum - but that is NOT the fault of ethanol. And there is no reason why farmers that grow energy crops cannot use those same products to run their farms as we've done in the past in this country and as is done in other countries today.
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:33 am

FYI: http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2007-09-30/big-oils-big-stall-on-ethanol

At the same time the industry is collecting a 51 cents-per-gallon federal subsidy for each gallon of ethanol it mixes with gas and sells as E10 (10% ethanol and 90% gas), it's working against the E85 blend with tactics both overt and stealthy. Efforts range from funding studies that bash the spread of ethanol for driving up the price of corn, and therefore some food, to not supporting E85 pumps at gas stations. The tactics infuriate a growing chorus of critics, from the usual suspects—pro-ethanol consumer groups—to the unexpected: the oil industry's oft-time ally, the auto industry.
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Re: Congress Actually Ends Taxpayer Funding Of Ethanol Subsi

Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:18 pm

Imagine all the billions of dollars, millions (?) of tons of topsoil, and millions (?) of acre feet of non-renewable groundwater that the USA has wasted over the last ~40 years, primarilly because Iowa has the first presidential primary...

New Report Urges Western Governments to Reconsider Reliance on Biofuels


By JUSTIN GILLISJAN. 28, 2015

Western governments have made a wrong turn in energy policy by supporting the large-scale conversion of plants into fuel and should reconsider that strategy, according to a new report from a prominent environmental think tank.

Turning plant matter into liquid fuel or electricity is so inefficient that the approach is unlikely ever to supply a substantial fraction of global energy demand, the report found. It added that continuing to pursue this strategy — which has already led to billions of dollars of investment — is likely to use up vast tracts of fertile land that could be devoted to helping feed the world’s growing population....


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/29/scien ... .html?_r=0

http://www.wri.org/publication/avoiding ... s-and-land
no condition is permanent

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