2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

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Autotrend

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-GArCwNYkA
2018 New Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime Plug In Hybrid

New Leaf Drivetrain Specifications
Battery
Type Li-ion battery
Capacity 40kWh
Electric motor
Maximum output 147 HP @ 3,283 9,795 RPM
Maximum torque 236 LB-FT @ 0 3,283 RPM
Performance
Cruising range 150 miles
Charging time (normal charging) 16 hours (3kW)
8 hours (6kW)
Charging time from alert to 80% (Quick Charging) 40 minutes
Curb weight 3,433 – 3,508 Lbs
Gross vehicle weight 4,453 Lbs
Price: 29 990 $

Toyota Prius Prime Plug-In Drivetrain Specifications
Battery
Type Li-ion battery
Capacity 8.8-kWh
Electric motor & gasoline engine 1.8 L
Maximum output 121 @ 5200
Maximum torque 105 @ 3600
Performance
Cruising range 11.3-gallon gas to 600-mile range
22 miles of electric-only driving
Charging time (normal charging) 2 hours (3kW)
5 hours (6kW)
Curb weight 3365 Lbs
Price: 30 000 $
 
I own the Prime and a 24 kWh LEAF. As a pair they work really well together for my household.
As a single car, probably not the LEAF
As a replacement for the 2nd car, it depends what the first car is and the duties required.

People bit with the EV bug do not really appreciate the Prime, but it is a study in efficiency and value. I use it for my 90 mile work commute and usually burn about 0.75 gallons of petrol and ~ 6.3 kWh of my PV generation every r/t. When we take it on 250 mile one way trips starting from a full battery (6.3 kWh used) we get ~ 75 mpg
 
Autotrend said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-GArCwNYkA
Charging time (normal charging) 2 hours (3kW)
5 hours (6kW)
I'm guessing that should read:
Charging time(240v 3kW) 2hrs
5hrs (normal 120v charging)
I'm not sure I'd personally like to have the Prime as my only EV but along with the Leaf it would be a nice pair. The Prime(to replace a regular 10-year-old Prius for my wife and long road trips) and the Leaf for everything else <50-70 miles.
I would really have liked the Prime to have a larger capacity battery, more like the Volt, but that would have probably been to radical for the stoggy people at Toyota :roll:
 
Certainly room for both in the market. Not sure there's a "vs" here. Interesting to see Prius having a Li-ion pack. Weren't they using NiMH? Or am I behind the times?
 
22 miles of EV only range is laughable, though not as laughable as that of its precedessor which had IIRC less than 10 miles' of pure EV range. It was targeting one specific market: California, for the HOV exemption stickers.

As mentioned already, the two aren't really in competition with each other, anymore than a Prius Prime is in competition with a bro-truck.
 
RonDawg said:
22 miles of EV only range is laughable, though not as laughable as that of its precedessor which had IIRC less than 10 miles' of pure EV range. It was targeting one specific market: California, for the HOV exemption stickers.

As mentioned already, the two aren't really in competition with each other, anymore than a Prius Prime is in competition with a bro-truck.
It's 25 miles EPA, and 20 miles covers the routine daily driving needs of more than half of U.S. drivers, while also being far more efficient when using the ICE than the Volt (owing to lower weight etc.), and having the ability to be most people's go anywhere car, which the LEAF can't be.

Compared to the Volt it's base-priced $6k less, while the 2016 taxable income (after deductions and exemptions) to qualify for the full fed. credits the Prime and Volt get were about $33k and $49k respectively, so far more people can both afford it and get the full tax credit available for it. Nor is there any need to install a 240V circuit and buy an L2 EVSE to take advantage of the car's full AER using only overnight charging. Hardly laughable, just a different and much less expensive PHEV than the Volt, that can satisfy the majority of U.S. driver's needs. Whether the Prime also satisfies their wants is an individual decision, but given the number of satisfied Prius owners out there, there's a large potential market for cars that are energy-efficient appliances.
 
Interesting to see Prius having a Li-ion pack. Weren't they using NiMH? Or am I behind the times?

They still use NiMH packs in the regular Priuses, excepting the Eco, AFAIK. They started using lithium packs with the gen 3 PIP.
 
GRA said:
RonDawg said:
22 miles of EV only range is laughable, though not as laughable as that of its precedessor which had IIRC less than 10 miles' of pure EV range. It was targeting one specific market: California, for the HOV exemption stickers.

As mentioned already, the two aren't really in competition with each other, anymore than a Prius Prime is in competition with a bro-truck.
It's 25 miles EPA, and 20 miles covers the routine daily driving needs of more than half of U.S. drivers, while also being far more efficient when using the ICE than the Volt (owing to lower weight etc.), and having the ability to be most people's go anywhere car, which the LEAF can't be.

Compared to the Volt it's base-priced $6k less, while the 2016 taxable income (after deductions and exemptions) to qualify for the full fed. credits the Prime and Volt get were about $33k and $49k respectively, so far more people can both afford it and get the full tax credit available for it. Nor is there any need to install a 240V circuit and buy an L2 EVSE to take advantage of the car's full AER using only overnight charging. Hardly laughable, just a different and much less expensive PHEV than the Volt, that can satisfy the majority of U.S. driver's needs. Whether the Prime also satisfies their wants is an individual decision, but given the number of satisfied Prius owners out there, there's a large potential market for cars that are energy-efficient appliances.

The 8.8 kWh battery in the Prime is eligible for ~ a $4,200 federal tax credit. I bought my Prime at a discount, and after combined fed and state tax credits paid about $17k for the car. Phenomenal deal for an exceptional car with next gen safety features, amazing efficiency, Toyota reliability, and driver assist (DRCC is *great*) ... but it is not a full time EV. Pick your poison.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Interesting to see Prius having a Li-ion pack. Weren't they using NiMH? Or am I behind the times?

They still use NiMH packs in the regular Priuses, excepting the Eco, AFAIK. They started using lithium packs with the gen 3 PIP.
And in some markets in the Prius wagon ("v") starting from 2012 IIRC
 
RonDawg said:
As mentioned already, the two aren't really in competition with each other, anymore than a Prius Prime is in competition with a bro-truck.

Umm actually...
When I bought my Leaf, I seriously considered the Volt. Had the Prime been an option at the time, I would have seriously considered that too. These cars absolutely compete for customers. Most people I've talked to (okay, not exactly scientific study) who considered a Volt or a Leaf also considered other options in the BEV/PHEV/HEV space. Yes, there are BEV fanboys and there are Hybrid fanboys. But many consumers who get interested in this space aren't already committed to one solution over the other.
 
DarthPuppy said:
RonDawg said:
As mentioned already, the two aren't really in competition with each other, anymore than a Prius Prime is in competition with a bro-truck.

Umm actually...
When I bought my Leaf, I seriously considered the Volt. Had the Prime been an option at the time, I would have seriously considered that too. These cars absolutely compete for customers. Most people I've talked to (okay, not exactly scientific study) who considered a Volt or a Leaf also considered other options in the BEV/PHEV/HEV space. Yes, there are BEV fanboys and there are Hybrid fanboys. But many consumers who get interested in this space aren't already committed to one solution over the other.

I would consider a Volt more of a contender, since it has at least 2x the pure EV range of the Prius Prime. That means far more people can drive on pure electric with the Volt than with the Prius Prime.
 
GRA said:
RonDawg said:
22 miles of EV only range is laughable, though not as laughable as that of its precedessor which had IIRC less than 10 miles' of pure EV range. It was targeting one specific market: California, for the HOV exemption stickers.

As mentioned already, the two aren't really in competition with each other, anymore than a Prius Prime is in competition with a bro-truck.
It's 25 miles EPA, and 20 miles covers the routine daily driving needs of more than half of U.S. drivers, while also being far more efficient when using the ICE than the Volt (owing to lower weight etc.), and having the ability to be most people's go anywhere car, which the LEAF can't be.

Compared to the Volt it's base-priced $6k less, while the 2016 taxable income (after deductions and exemptions) to qualify for the full fed. credits the Prime and Volt get were about $33k and $49k respectively, so far more people can both afford it and get the full tax credit available for it. Nor is there any need to install a 240V circuit and buy an L2 EVSE to take advantage of the car's full AER using only overnight charging. Hardly laughable, just a different and much less expensive PHEV than the Volt, that can satisfy the majority of U.S. driver's needs. Whether the Prime also satisfies their wants is an individual decision, but given the number of satisfied Prius owners out there, there's a large potential market for cars that are energy-efficient appliances.

It's laughable because the Ford Fusion Energi has a pure electric range of 22 miles per the EPA. And that's a big sedan (I know, I recently rented the non-plug-in hybrid). Another large sedan, the Kia Optima Hybrid, can go 29 miles on pure electricity. Its sister car, the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid, will go 27 (not sure why it's a bit less as the cars are identical under the skin).

A Chrysler Pacifica PHEV, called a "mini"van but it's hardly mini, can go 33 miles on its battery. That's about the same range the PHEV version of the Hyundai Ioniq is expected to get when it finally shows up in dealerships, likely for a cheaper price than a Prius Prime. Certainly far less ugly than a Prius Prime.

Even a BMW i8, which is hardly an economy car, will still go 15 miles on its battery.

In other words, Toyota can do better. It just chooses not to at this point.
 
25 miles AER just isn't enough. What's that 25 miles going to be in the dead of winter going 70mph on the freeway with the heater on?!

Better off with just the hybrid version as just a few real world miles of electric range is just a tease!
 
rcm4453 said:
25 miles AER just isn't enough. What's that 25 miles going to be in the dead of winter going 70mph on the freeway with the heater on?!

Better off with just the hybrid version as just a few real world miles of electric range is just a tease!
I agree 25 miles is very minimal but the Prime does have a standard heat-pump heater(although at single digit F and lower temps it doesn't really help much) but I believe the Prime is meant as more an upgrade for someone looking at a regular Prius as a replacement for a true EV.
If I could get a Prime for the ~$17k(after rebates) as the CO member did, I would in a NY minute, perfect replacement for our aging '07 Prius. 50MPG on our trips to FL and even better for my wifes back and forth to work :)
 
rcm4453 said:
25 miles AER just isn't enough. What's that 25 miles going to be in the dead of winter going 70mph on the freeway with the heater on?!

Better off with just the hybrid version as just a few real world miles of electric range is just a tease!

As I mentioned above, Toyota seemingly created the Prime (and the PiP before that) to take advantage of California's HOV sticker program. Using the EPA's comparison tool on FuelEconomy.gov, the Prime only saves you $100/year in fuel costs over the Prius "Eco" and $150/year over the regular Prius, but costs between $2k and $4k more when comparing base prices.
 
RonDawg said:
GRA said:
RonDawg said:
22 miles of EV only range is laughable, though not as laughable as that of its precedessor which had IIRC less than 10 miles' of pure EV range. It was targeting one specific market: California, for the HOV exemption stickers.

As mentioned already, the two aren't really in competition with each other, anymore than a Prius Prime is in competition with a bro-truck.
It's 25 miles EPA, and 20 miles covers the routine daily driving needs of more than half of U.S. drivers, while also being far more efficient when using the ICE than the Volt (owing to lower weight etc.), and having the ability to be most people's go anywhere car, which the LEAF can't be.

Compared to the Volt it's base-priced $6k less, while the 2016 taxable income (after deductions and exemptions) to qualify for the full fed. credits the Prime and Volt get were about $33k and $49k respectively, so far more people can both afford it and get the full tax credit available for it. Nor is there any need to install a 240V circuit and buy an L2 EVSE to take advantage of the car's full AER using only overnight charging. Hardly laughable, just a different and much less expensive PHEV than the Volt, that can satisfy the majority of U.S. driver's needs. Whether the Prime also satisfies their wants is an individual decision, but given the number of satisfied Prius owners out there, there's a large potential market for cars that are energy-efficient appliances.
It's laughable because the Ford Fusion Energi has a pure electric range of 22 miles per the EPA. And that's a big sedan (I know, I recently rented the non-plug-in hybrid). Another large sedan, the Kia Optima Hybrid, can go 29 miles on pure electricity. Its sister car, the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid, will go 27 (not sure why it's a bit less as the cars are identical under the skin).

A Chrysler Pacifica PHEV, called a "mini"van but it's hardly mini, can go 33 miles on its battery. That's about the same range the PHEV version of the Hyundai Ioniq is expected to get when it finally shows up in dealerships, likely for a cheaper price than a Prius Prime. Certainly far less ugly than a Prius Prime.

Even a BMW i8, which is hardly an economy car, will still go 15 miles on its battery.

In other words, Toyota can do better. It just chooses not to at this point.
Toyota could certainly provide more AER if they chose to, but not at that price point. If you can't afford the car, it's AER is irrelevant. And if you don't need the extra electric range, why pay for and haul the extra battery weight around all the time, when all it does is reduce your efficiency in BOTH CD and CS mode, and decrease internal volume?
 
GRA said:
Toyota could certainly provide more AER if they chose to, but not at that price point. If you can't afford the car, it's AER is irrelevant. And if you don't need the extra electric range, why pay for and haul the extra battery weight around all the time, when all it does is reduce your efficiency in BOTH CD and CS mode, and decrease internal volume?

For such people there's a better bargain in the very same showroom: the regular (non-plug-in) Prius.

Again Toyota COULD do better, but it chooses not to. As a former Toyota owner (Hilux 4x4) it's sad to see such a company resort to doing "good enough" to quote your sig line when it used to be the innovator.
 
rcm4453 said:
25 miles AER just isn't enough. What's that 25 miles going to be in the dead of winter going 70mph on the freeway with the heater on?!

Better off with just the hybrid version as just a few real world miles of electric range is just a tease!
What you mean is that 25 miles AER isn't enough for you. It's enough for plenty of people. If you're going 70 mph on the freeway (in the heart of the commute? not likely) in winter you really don't need the battery in any case; let the engine provide heat. Save the battery for when it gives you the biggest energy and pollution advantage - stop and go freeway driving and surface streets. And, for that small but growing % of the population who can take advantage of charging at both ends, 25 miles AER is plenty for everyone but the super/mega-commuters.

If your commute/routine driving is greater than the Prime's AER and being able to do all of it on the battery is important to you, then the Prime is the wrong choice for you. But the general public isn't so motivated, and according to polls their single biggest impediment to buying an EV is the price compared to an ICE (lack of charging infrastructure is #2). PEVs need to be able to compete on initial and/or monthly payments, especially once the subsidies disappear. For now, the Prime, along with the C-Max Energi, are the only PHEVs that can be nearly full substitutes for ICE equivalents at a price (including the fed. credit) that's close enough to ICEs that many people can afford to extend a bit. In California and other states that have their own credits or rebates, the Prime can be cheaper than the base Prius, so the decision on which one to get comes down to whether or not you need the extra seat and cargo space of the HEV, and whether or not you want all HVAC controls on the touch screen (or maybe I'm thinking of the Mirai). If those issues aren't important to you, then the Prime's the way to go, and that's the way you can get the maximum amount of butts in PEV seats, which will convince many of those people who are currently unwilling to completely change over to BEVs now to upgrade to more capable plugins for their next car, once the costs have come down further and the infrastructure has improved.

Almost no one buys cars based on TCO, even if they have the info to calculate that. What % of the car-buying population even compares insurance premiums for different cars and factors that into their decision? Most people who have to take price seriously into account (which doesn't include the typical new Model S/X buyer) decide whether they can afford a car on based on initial price (or more typically down payment plus monthly payments), as they can estimate with sufficient accuracy for their needs whether they can afford operating costs given EPA mpg. That's about as in-depth as most car buyers get (or want to) when it comes to TCO, so trying to sell cars to the general public based on TCO isn't likely to succeed - it sure hasn't so far, any more than selling them based on green credentials has.
 
RonDawg said:
GRA said:
Toyota could certainly provide more AER if they chose to, but not at that price point. If you can't afford the car, it's AER is irrelevant. And if you don't need the extra electric range, why pay for and haul the extra battery weight around all the time, when all it does is reduce your efficiency in BOTH CD and CS mode, and decrease internal volume?

For such people there's a better bargain in the very same showroom: the regular (non-plug-in) Prius.

Again Toyota COULD do better, but it chooses not to. As a former Toyota owner (Hilux 4x4) it's sad to see such a company resort to doing "good enough" to quote your sig line when it used to be the innovator.
See my immediately preceding post as to Toyota's reasons. As noted there, in California and other states which offer credits or rebates of their own, the Prime is about equal in price (cheaper in CA and CO) than the HEV Prius. Only cargo/pax space and the touch screen are left as deciding factors.
 
Our PIP cost less to lease than a Prius II, gets about 75MPG as opposed to 50 for the II we had, and has enough AER to do all our errands in town as an EV. I don't like the lack of electric heat or heated steering wheel, but the range/cost/utility are great. If you have greatly different needs, what's the point in criticizing a car that wasn't meant to meet them?
 
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